Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Dear all,

Just to share a glass bottle I recently acquired. It is about 10cm in height ( makimg me to think that it could be a table top bottle to store larger amount of snuff powder ). The amber color glass has external enamel painting of floral design. Under the bottle is a four-character seal mark of ' made in the period of Qian Long '.

For your views and comments please.

Inn Bok

Dear OIB,

In my opinion it is a very nice modern bottle. Although it is not old, the artist knows how to work

Thanks for share it!

Dear Inn Bok,

      I actually think it is at least Republic [ca.1915-1935], and might well be 18th C. and Imperial [if the detail I gave you privately, is present].
      Look at the superb shading of the pink and the green. And the style of the leaves and the trunk, etc.
BEST WISHES FOR THE YEAR OF THE DOG,
Best,
Joey

Dear Inn Bok and all,

A wonderful bottle of great artistic value, but I am surprised that Joey thinks your bottle "might well be 18th C. and Imperial...". I know he has a lot more experience with snuff bottles than me.  I assume he was referring to the reassuring fact that the mark seems to be engraved in the glass and then filled with blue enamel.

My concerns are:

• at 10 cm high, it is uncommonly big for an enameled snuff bottle
• the mark reads "Qian Long Yu zhi" or "Made by imperial command of Qianlong"
• The gold around the neck makes it look more like an expensive perfume bottle
• the color of the blue used for the mark seems off to me

Best regards,

Tom B.

Dear Tom B.,

     You got it in one! The bottle seems to have age, and incised and filled marks were NOT known in the Republican period [sounds like we are discussing Ireland!  ::) ].
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Obviously, now you're making me doubt, but I'm sure I've seen some bottles of the same artist on ebay, selling as modern.

I'll look for you a little tonight.


Best,
Albert

Dear Albert,

     Both you and Tom B. seem to feel it is modern, but I think it could very well be Republic period [ca.1915-1935], or even much older, if the mark is incised and filled, which is how the genuine bottles were done.
On copies made from the period 1920 onward, the marks were just painted in enamel and fired.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

If you are thinking it, I trust in you. Maybe the bottles watched by me was modern copies. But I want to search them in order to see the differences bettwen them ;).

Best,
Albert.

My first feeling on seeing this was that it was modern.

The base glass looks wrong if I download the pictures and zoom in as far as possible. I can't exactly describe it, just an unevenness of the glass, probably mould blown.

I am always suspicious of short spoons that would not really be usable. Of course it could be a replacement but as soon as I see a short metal spoon like this I am weary.

The  gold around the neck hasn't been applied too carefully and the wheel cut design around the neck hasn't been well finished. 

It's not one I could call from pictures with any conviction and the size is unusual.

Regards, Adrian.

I have not found any very similar item among the modern bottles sold on ebay, but some interesting

...

How pretty. I love the art work.

   Kaja

Dear Albert,

      Both the first one, with a Guyuexuan mark, and the second with a Qianlong nianzhi mark, are simply raised enamel applied to the base of the bottle.
 
       It looks like Inn Bok's bottle has an incised and filled mark. Those are the genuine Imperial marks.

Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Your observation is very iteresting, I will try to found a similar moder item.

Best
Albert.

Dear Inn Bok and all,

I assume you are busy, possibly celebrating New Years, but we could use some better images of the mark when you get a chance. 

I wrote Joey an email and voiced my concerns and he replied as follows:

"Dear Tom,

I do think it is Republic, but if it indeed has an incised and filled blue mark, how did they get that right before craftsmen other than the Imperial Workshops knew that detail? In the 1920s & 1930s, artisans like Ye Bengqi could see the objects but not handle them.
 
I understood that only genuine 18th & 19th C. objects had incised and filled enamel marks. Later marks [from Republic onward] were just raised enamel.

This could be a post 1990 PRC fake (in 1986 Robert Kleiner completed serious research on behalf of Sotheby's re.marks; it was published, and I reckon by 1990 or a few years later, was known to the fakers),
but the enameling is so good, I think it is earlier.

Best,
Joey"

I am happy that we have established the two choices for Inn Bok's SB - it is either a fabulous original or a fabulous fake.  In my opinion it is the latter for several reasons.

Thanks to Albert for posting the images of several modern enameled glass snuff bottles.  The double bottle has similar convincing-looking decoration and enamels as Inn Bok's bottle. 

The following images show the mark compared to genuine marks:

The harsh gilding around the neck of Inn Bok's bottle bothers me...
Best,
Joey

And here is the mark on Inn Bok's SB compared to the mark on the Gu Yue Xuan marked SB posted by Albert.  You can see the similarity in the texture of the mark:

Dear Joey,

That was the next thing that I was about to point out, but you were quicker. :)

Best regards,

Tom B.

Dear Tom B.,

      I must say, the shade of the blue looks 'wrong' on Inn Bok's bottle, but I wonder if that is simply bad photography.
The Guyuexuan mark is quite similar in texture to the Qianlong mark,
but I want to hear if it is incised and filled.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey and Tom,

As you know I'm not an expert in snuff bottles and Idon't know nothing about the mark's, I'm only basing my opinion in the shape, size, painting style and my remembers of a very similar modern snuff bottles. But I'm sury that I saw an very similar bottle made by a moder artist.

I'm going to continue looking for it during the following weeks.

Best,
Albert.

Today's similar bottles!

Best,
Albert.

Just out of interest, what is the upper character in the left column off Inn Bok's bottle? It is different from the usual "乾隆年制"?
Regards,
Matthias

Dear Joey, Tom B, etc,

I have to ask myself why the incising of the pattern around the neck is sloppily done when the best craftsmen were available if it was genuine. A key fret design is simple compared to most of the working of overlays and stone bottles that were done back in the day.

A query about the incised marks is would they be overfilled with enamel and then have the excess polished away to leave a smooth surface which is what it looks like if I look at genuine incised and filled marks. If Inn Bok's mark is incised and filled it looks to be slightly uneven.  

I have examples of raised marks and, possibly, infilled marks on modern bottles.

Regards, Adrian.

Dear Mat,
 
    The mark is 'Qianlong YUzhi'   Yuzhi means "By Imperial Command".
Serious mark, if genuine.
Joey

Dear Albert,

     Yes the last bottles you posted do seem to have the same type of mark as Inn Bok's bottle.
I was so hoping it was genuine.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey, thank you for the information.
Regards,
Matthias

Dear Joey and others,

It is a pleasure to be able to contribute knowledge and to be able to learn from expert people.

Best,
Albert.

Dear all,

It has been a fairly busy time for me as my family prepared and celebrated the Chinese Lunar New Year of Dog.
By the way, we are just into the 5th day of the 15-day Chinese New Year. Some Chinese who observe the tradition would be welcoming the God of Fortune today  :D :D

Back to the bottle I posted. Indeed, the seal mark at the base of my large enamelled bottle was NOT incised and filled. So according SB experts, it would not be of the Qianlong period and definitely not ' by the imperial command ' of the Emperor !

Actually, Joey, is it the general conclusive views of SB experts that only glass bottles with incised+filled marks are of the Qianlong period ?

For me, I bought this large enamelled on glass bottle for the following reasons :
1. It was aestatically appealing to me when I first saw it standing on the shelf in that antique shop in Singapore.
    The contrasts of the enamel colors and the amber color glass were just lovely to my eyes,
2. The execution of the enamel paintwork on the glass surface was well done to me. They had that feeling of
    'softness' and 'fluidity'. Some of the enamel-on-glass bottles I have seen appear stiff and lifeless,
3. The application of the multi-color enamel, from light to darker tone, was well executed, considering the firing
    process that would follow,
4. My assumption that the bottle of 10cm was not meant to be carried about, but to be placed on table top for
    storing larger quantity of powder which would be transferred to the more petit bottles in the owner's palm.

I think the bottle was mould blown and then faceted to the 8-sided panels.

Regards,

Inn Bok

Dear Inn Bok,

     Happy Year of the Dog!
Yes, it is almost unanimously agreed that only incised and filled marks are genuine Imperial wares, but there are genuine bottles with painted on and fired marks.
But they are painted on in a very thin wash and are not raised at all. In fact they are very hard to feel, if not impossible.
Please remember that I am talking about glass bottles. NOT enameled porcelain or enameled metal bottles.
Best,
Joey

   If a mark feels raised when touched, it needs to be incised and filled to be prior to

Thanks Joey for your comments and information.

Inn Bok

Dear all,

I forgot to add one more reason for acquiring the large bottle.

I have a soft spot for double-gourd shaped bottles !!

Inn Bok

Dear Inn Bok, as you like double gourd bottles, here is one I have, not the same quality as yours, but I like the landscape. It is dated 1996 (or 1936, but I do not think so). Size is 10 cm.
Regards,
Matthias