Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Glass Snuff Bottles => Topic started by: cshapiro on June 10, 2017, 05:08:11 pm



Title: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 10, 2017, 05:08:11 pm
Wanted to share this! Beautiful tiny tiny faceted bottle. It is just 3.1 cm high, and has the Qianlong reign mark etched into the bottom!

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Frubyfaceted.jpg&hash=8b83325fb0769650f729c7139ffa7de5)


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: George on June 10, 2017, 07:53:38 pm
We recently had a discussion about a similar bottle.. I would like to see sharper corners/edges to the faceting, but others seem to think slightly rounded is ok..

The wide mouth is lovely...

Are those abrasive marks around the lower part of the neck just above the shoulders ?


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: AntPeople on June 10, 2017, 07:56:09 pm
Nice bottle Cathy.... I always like these little bottles but have none in my collection so far.....

Pin


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 10, 2017, 08:08:23 pm
Thanks Pin and George!

George I don't see any abrasive marks - I think it's just reflected light - just my bad photography

;)


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Luke on June 11, 2017, 05:03:53 am
Wow! Congratulations Cathy! Looks like a beautiful example...

Where did you pick this one up from?



Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: NE collector on June 11, 2017, 07:27:11 am
Hi Cathy,

What a great bottle. Love the color. Congrats!

Regards,

Toni-Lee


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 11, 2017, 10:58:33 am
Thanks Luke and Toni-Lee!

Toni-Lee the color is pretty when it is in sunlight, but is much darker in the shade (like in the last picture where I show the mouth)
and Luke I very much lucked out on getting this one. This is the second time I have run into a second generation selling off the bottles of their fathers. This time in Florida.
I am going to ask if it's ok to say his name because I believe he was an ICSBS member.

I also bought some rock crystal and glass bottles I am very excited about too. I will post them soon!


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Luke on June 12, 2017, 10:38:34 am
Interested to hear who you bought the bottles off and to see your other recent purchases Cathy! A very interesting bottle you posted on facebook today...

George - I've noticed with other bottles of this type that the faceting is often sharper(especially on examples that i've looked at that claim to be imperial), but Giovanni stated that he does not believe this is any indication of age or I guess quality. It guess it may just be an artistic decision by the maker who decides how deep and sharp the faceting should be. I have read that if the Qianlong reign mark here is genuine and of the period this could well be an imperial bottle? What do you think? Would be interesting to hear other opinions on this...


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: George on June 12, 2017, 12:10:53 pm
Interested to hear who you bought the bottles off and to see your other recent purchases Cathy! A very interesting bottle you posted on facebook today...

George - I've noticed with other bottles of this type that the faceting is often sharper(especially on examples that i've looked at that claim to be imperial), but Giovanni stated that he does not believe this is any indication of age or I guess quality. It guess it may just be an artistic decision by the maker who decides how deep and sharp the faceting should be. I have read that if the Qianlong reign mark here is genuine and of the period this could well be an imperial bottle? What do you think? Would be interesting to hear other opinions on this...

I think your right .. Could well have been the artistic decision by the maker..  I have seen Imperial examples with dull corners like Cathy's..  So could well be Imperial..

Giovanni is likely correct :)


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 12, 2017, 01:56:16 pm
Thanks Luke and George!

I am hoping to hear from some of the senior members like Giovanni to get their opinions on this one.
I have been re-reading the Marakovic book on e-yaji and everything seems right - from the size to the mouth to the mark.

George I am attaching another picture that shows the edges of the facets - each one appears to have a tiny facet to knock off the sharpness of the edge.

And yes Luke I am just spellbound by the carved rock crystal bottle I posted on facebook. I will likely post it here as well because I would like to hear what Tom and others think about it.

I also want to post the rock crystal bat bottle that I also got from this collectors estate.
Will try to find time to edit the pictures so I can post today or tomorrow.

In the meantime, here are a couple more photos - and yes, I need a manicure but left my fingers in the shot so you could see how tiny it is!

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Fredfacet2.jpg&hash=540e9ec1a1d2c5be2c36300c5e33d6fe)


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: George on June 12, 2017, 06:32:47 pm
Thanks for the pics Cathy..

They show a much less rounded corners than I thought..

Congrats again !


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 12, 2017, 07:15:07 pm
Thanks George!  I find it really difficult to photograph some bottles, and this one is particularly hard - probably because of the small size.

A sincere thanks for all you do running this board and encouraging and helping everyone!


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 12, 2017, 10:06:24 pm
   The mark looks modern to me, because it is too well done. The genuine original marks are cruder (and I've had 9 of them in my possession), because they were done with a foot pedal powered grinder. This looks like it was done with a very fine diamond tipped power tool.

And the usual size for genuine Imperial Qianlong octagonal bottles is about 50-60 mm (5-6 cm).
This is more the size of a  bottle from the Yongzheng reign.

Clare Chu has a collection of 7 of these octagonal bottles, from 3.5 cm up to 7 cm in size, bought in the Shanghai Flea Market for US$30-50 each. There were two Hong Kong collectors who, in the 1990s, would not buy octagonal glass bottles without incised Imperial marks. And dozens of octagonal bottles all of a sudden came on the market WITH such marks.

   Most of my reign marked Imperial bottles (and I had only one in 1987, which I featured in my exhibition catalogue that year, #2, bought from YF Yang in 1981 during the ICSBS Honolulu convention), came from the Marian Mayer Collection, via Bob Hall in 1989 at the ICSBS Chicago convention (#53, 54, 59, 60, 61 & 62), and so had great provenance.  The last four bottles were quite crudely polished and carved overlays, but all had genuine Qianlong marks, authenticated by Bob Hall as well as YF Yang and Hugh Moss, who'd helped Bob with his 2nd catalogue, where these were illustrated.



Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 12, 2017, 10:45:08 pm
Dear Joey,

Unfortunately there is not a picture of the mark on your bottle in your 1987 catalog. Do you have a picture you could post? There appear to be very few examples of a faceted bottle with a reign mark that I can find.

Your post makes me very encouraged because the mark on mine is crudely done - I took a picture looking straight at it to show that. The other pictures were at angles so you couldn't see it properly.  I put arrows pointing to the areas where the mark is off. You can see too where the mark overshoots or doesn't connect which makes me think it was not done with anything modern. Maybe our resident former lapidary expert (George) can help with determining what kind of tool made these marks?

Also on the size, I have found at least one that is smaller, but not marked. This one only 2.9cm!
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/46981773_a-ruby-red-glass-snuff-bottle

From reading the Marakovic exhibition, it is my understanding that there were a lot of the smaller bottles made so wouldn't 3.1cm be in line with the time frame?
Quote
The relatively small size of this particular example prompts us to note that, although the standard-sized snuff bottle represented by some of the imperial enamels on metal of the Kangxi period (whether painted or inlaid) continued throughout the dynasty, smaller sizes seem to have been popular alongside them during the early decades of the eighteenth century. There were probably two reasons for this. The ever-growing production of bottles as containers for gifts during the eighteenth century as snuff took hold in wider and wider circles prompted relatively smaller sizes – to limit the amount of precious snuff distributed. The seriously small bottles we now call ‘miniatures’ that evolved by the Qianlong reign might have been a natural progression of this trend. A gift of snuff was all it took to grant imperial benediction; there was no need to dole it out by the shovel-full. Many standard-size bottles continued to be produced, however. The elite were not short of fine snuff and might prefer larger bottles for their daily needs.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Fcrudemark.jpg&hash=0f6696643eb8bd6480ef400eaebd7d21)




Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Wattana on June 13, 2017, 01:17:07 am
Hi Cathy,

This mark looks wheel cut to me.

Tom


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: George on June 13, 2017, 01:24:10 am
You can see too where the mark overshoots or doesn't connect which makes me think it was not done with anything modern. Maybe our resident former lapidary expert (George) can help with determining what kind of tool made these marks?


Those overshoots are the biggest clue that the mark was done with an iron brush ... So pretty Early.

I think yes as well for the height of your bottle being a match for Beijing glass shops. 


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 13, 2017, 02:04:39 am
Tom and George, thank you!!!

I'm so glad to have help from you guys! I don't even know what wheel cut or iron brush means - I have much more to learn!


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: forestman on June 13, 2017, 03:16:17 am
Hi Cathy,

Interesting to see your quote from the Marakovic collection which talks of these miniature bottles as being gift bottles. I have read, from Robert Hall ?, that the octagonal bottles were normally gift bottles. As yours is both octagonal and miniature then it certainly fits as a gift bottle.

I've seen a number of the miniature glass bottles come up at auction but I've taken little interest as they normally have quite long necks which don't appeal to me as the proportions look wrong. I like yours as the neck is the right length.

I'm not sure the mark is wheel cut, I can't see enough to tell if the incised cuts become less deep at their ends as with wheel cutting.

The polishing marks on the base look correct for age as in polished with a large wheel and lose abrasive material.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Rube on June 13, 2017, 08:12:18 am
Cathy,

Pretty bottle!

George,

I'm curious if you can describe in more detail or lead me somewhere which describes the process of the "iron brush" technique of carving by hand?  I have experience in wood carving, but is the process similar when carving in stone or glass?  Specifically, what is the type of chisel used, and does the carver go over a stroke once, or make several passes
to get the desired characters?  Aside from the good point about seeing the depth of the strokes on the ends of the lines
as to whether they're from a rotary tool or not, what are some other clues to look for?  By my untrained eye, my first conclusion when looking at this bottle is that the "overshoots" are done with a power tool.

Thanks,


Rheuben.


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 13, 2017, 08:34:53 am
Cathy,

   Seeing the mark face on, Yes, it does look suitably crude (it still seems strange to me to write that - since we basically look for the 'best' quality! But in this case, cruder is better, to a point).
 
    Re.size, it seems to me more suitable to a Yongzheng bottle than a Qianlong bottle; and the glass colour and the wide mouth, look 'right' for 18th C., so it might simply be from earlier in the Qianlong reign, say ca.1740-1760, or, as Adrian suggests from somewhere he read, that it was a gift bottle, and thus smaller. But by and large, the ones with incised marks were NOT meant as gifts, or at least not to go outside the Forbidden City, in my understanding.

  Re.the marks on my bottles: Sadly, I've no photo of the mark on my purple glass flask (#2 in my 1987 catalogue), but if you have Robert Hall C.S.B. #2, from 1989, he had the bases photographed and they are with the bottles. In an earlier post, I listed the 6 marked glass bottles I bought then from the Marian Mayer Collection out of that sales catalogue.

  I really went to town at that convention! I saw Bob & Lindsey Hall on the Sunday before the convention, and bought 10 bottles (I wanted 15, but 5 were on hold for another collector; I subsequently bought 2 of the 5. In fact, I bought one of them while on a flight from London to Toronto - it was Bob Hall's luck I was trying to 'save' money, flying Club instead of First, so he had a captive audience for 7 hours!

   As well, I bought 12  top quality bottles from Clare Chu, then Clare Lawrence (then Clare Lawrence ltd, London; now, Asian Art Studio, LA).
I also bought a Qianlong  period Palace Workshops Lapis Lazuli bottle with a Qianlong couplet incised on one side, complete with a Yuzhi ('By Imperial Command Made' mark) mark as part of the inscription, from Chris Randall (JWA Int.)

   


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: George on June 13, 2017, 12:12:03 pm


George,

I'm curious if you can describe in more detail or lead me somewhere which describes the process of the "iron brush" technique of carving by hand?  I have experience in wood carving, but is the process similar when carving in stone or glass?  Specifically, what is the type of chisel used, and does the carver go over a stroke once, or make several passes
to get the desired characters?  Aside from the good point about seeing the depth of the strokes on the ends of the lines
as to whether they're from a rotary tool or not, what are some other clues to look for?  By my untrained eye, my first conclusion when looking at this bottle is that the "overshoots" are done with a power tool.

.

The overshoots are a good indicator that the incised mark was done with an iron brush/chisel and I have not seen overshoots like seen on Cathy's bottle done with use of power rotary tool.  They usually indicate that the carver sort of slipped out at the end of a push with the chisel.  I have not seen any pictures of a truly old iron brush.

Number of passes depend on hardness of material.

I like the book, The Brush The Stone by Christopher Randall..

Here are a few favored archived posts via the Facebook group called Collecting Antique Chinese Jade.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/319030194928738/permalink/335092969989127/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/319030194928738/permalink/424028427762247/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/319030194928738/permalink/424028424428914/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/319030194928738/permalink/476746555823767/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/319030194928738/permalink/476743779157378/

The same clues can be used on different minerals, and glass.


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Rube on June 13, 2017, 12:47:17 pm
Thanks George!


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 13, 2017, 05:20:23 pm
Quote
but if you have Robert Hall C.S.B. #2, from 1989, he had the bases photographed and they are with the bottles

Hey Joey, I looked those up but they are Daoguang marks - I have all of the Robert Hall pdf's so will try to get through them and see if I can find Qianlong marks on faceted glass.

George, while I was looking through 1-5 (all I've had time to look at so far) I found another Wang Xisan enameled glass reign mark! And thanks for the posts from the Jade Guy ;) - those are great posts. I especially like his quizzes!

I saw your review of Randall's book on Amazon and got the book - thanks for the reference!



Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 13, 2017, 09:37:59 pm
You need to REREAD what I wrote.
I stated that I bought 6 glass bottles from the Marian Mayer collection with genuine incised reign marks. #2 in my 1987 catalogue was not octagonal either. There were a lot more Palace Workshops small overlay bottles with incised marks and other glass bottles with incised marks,
than the octagonal examples.
Look at ALL genuine incised marks on glass bottles from provenanced collections, not just those on octagonal ones.


Quote
but if you have Robert Hall C.S.B. #2, from 1989, he had the bases photographed and they are with the bottles

Hey Joey, I looked those up but they are Daoguang marks - I have all of the Robert Hall pdf's so will try to get through them and see if I can find Qianlong marks on faceted glass.

George, while I was looking through 1-5 (all I've had time to look at so far) I found another Wang Xisan enameled glass reign mark! And thanks for the posts from the Jade Guy ;) - those are great posts. I especially like his quizzes!

I saw your review of Randall's book on Amazon and got the book - thanks for the reference!




Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 14, 2017, 12:21:25 am
Dear Joey,

Oh, to be honest I had to read that a couple more times to understand what you meant.
So you bought bottles from MM's collection, and some of the base marks are shown in Robert Hall's CSB #2, and I should look at "all" the marks, not just the faceted ones.

Hope I'm understanding correctly now. ;)

She did seem to favor the small glass bottles and had some beautiful ones!



Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 14, 2017, 04:51:18 am
Cathy,

    You got it in one!
Your target  (in this case) is learning about genuine incised marks on glass snuff bottles and other small glasswares (such as water droppers, brushwashers), NOT just genuine incised marks on octagonal bottles. Because all the small Imperial glasswares would have been incised in the same location (the Glass workshops in the Forbidden City), by the same people. There would have been a small number who produced the incised or inscribed marks, whether in the Imperial Workshops or in the Imperial Porcelain Works in Jingdezhen.

   It was estimated by the late Robert Kleiner, who'd researched Imperial marks on B & W wares in the Qing Dynasty while he worked for Sotheby's, that only 2 or 3 men inscribed ALL the Yongzheng Imperial marked small porcelain wares (such as snuff bottles, etc.)!


Dear Joey,

Oh, to be honest I had to read that a couple more times to understand what you meant.
So you bought bottles from MM's collection, and some of the base marks are shown in Robert Hall's CSB #2, and I should look at "all" the marks, not just the faceted ones.

Hope I'm understanding correctly now. ;)

She did seem to favor the small glass bottles and had some beautiful ones!




Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Rube on June 14, 2017, 05:18:47 am
Cathy,

Speaking of Robert Kleiner, in his White Wings Collection, there are a number of nice octagonal faceted bottles to view, though none with marks. It's a beautiful book ( I have my mother's signed copy) and though I haven't read it entirely, I enjoyed seeing that Joey was mentioned in the early pages!

Cheers,


Rheuben.


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 14, 2017, 11:36:55 am
Quote
Because all the small Imperial glasswares would have been incised in the same location (the Glass workshops in the Forbidden City), by the same people. There would have been a small number who produced the incised or inscribed marks, whether in the Imperial Workshops or in the Imperial Porcelain Works in Jingdezhen.

   It was estimated by the late Robert Kleiner, who'd researched Imperial marks on B & W wares in the Qing Dynasty while he worked for Sotheby's, that only 2 or 3 men inscribed ALL the Yongzheng Imperial marked small porcelain wares (such as snuff bottles, etc.)!

Thanks Joey - this is really great information. I wonder if there has ever been a study done on identifying them - something like a handwriting analysis? I am trying to accumulate all the pictures I can of the reign marks on the enameled glass bottles of Ye Bengqi and Wang Xisan, and so will expand my research to include the incised marks on glass.

Sounds like a good summer (maybe longer) project!

Rheuben, I didn't have the White Wings Collection so have purchased it - thanks for the reference!




Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 14, 2017, 08:34:16 pm
Cathy,

    My pleasure. You need to understand something - in 1976 I visited the late Isadore Lample in Santa Monica CA, and he had an octagonal SB in ruby red glass, 18th C. Palace Workshops, very like yours, but no mark. I did not like it, feeling it looked European. Which is no surprise, since the shape was copying European pocket watches received as tribute from Europeans to the Qianlong Emperor. He'd bought it from Hugh Moss.
    I did not buy one till 1981, when I bought #1 from YF Yang, and #2 and #3 as well; all 18th C. and all Palace Workshops (I got some great glass from YF in 1981!  ;)). But only the Purple one had a mark. I saw possibly 50 octagonal bottles before 1990, and if 10-15% had incised marks, it was a lot.

    In  Sept./Oct. 1980, the late Marian Mayer of Cape Cod Mass., exhibited her glass SBs at Steuben Glass on 5th Ave. in NYC. She had 20 with incised Imperial marks, all genuine, out of the 130 displayed (she had about 250 glass SBs in total, most gifted to the Corning Museum, Corning, NY after her death in 1988). She had four octagonal among the 20.

      I asked her how she'd found 4 octagonal bottles with marks (2 Qianlong, one Jiaqing, and one Tongzhi; the two octagonal blue ones with Daoguang marks I bought from Bob Hall in 1989, but which had also come from her collection, Hugh Moss found for her after 1980). She was not that friendly to me, but opined that, "They are as rare as hens' teeth, but perseverance will win the day."  That was true till the early 1990s, when 2 HK collectors 'demanded' marked octagonal
bottles; and got lots of them. Whether the bottles are genuine and the marks not, or whether both bottles and marks are modern, I won't say; but I will say three more things:

1. In 1996, there was  a booth in the dealers' room  (all PRC 'dealers' actually, mainly modern Inside Painters - none of the  Western dealers had been able to negotiate the complex PRC laws) at the Beijing part of our Beijing/Hong Kong convention, selling octagonal bottles - the colours were 'right' ( correct shades of ruby red, Imperial yellow, purple, etc.), the finish was 'right', etc., for from US$50 - US$350 each, and from 20 mm  to 65 mm in height. They must have had 60-80 octagonal bottles on display as well as other shapes - they had an Imperial yellow basket weave for US$350 that I still regret not buying! It was so good, that if it had come up later in the Bloch collection I could have been fooled! I am serious.

2. Clare Chu in her home, in Feb.2014, had a line of 7 modern octagonal bottles of assorted sizes stood on a display, all bought by her in Shanghai Curio Market for US$20-50 each.

3. I honestly believe your bottle is 'right', though I can't tell about the mark's authenticity.

Dear Rube,

     Thank you. I ended up buying 17 of the IPSBs from White Wings, though, sadly, none of the superb Ding Erzhongs.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: cshapiro on June 14, 2017, 11:55:45 pm
Dear Joey,

MM must have been a character! I laughed at Robert Hall's description about their rocky relationship.

I can relate to her, as you know, I am also very opinionated!

This month marks my one year anniversary of collecting snuff bottles and I've been very fond of the faceted ones since the beginning.

I have several - some octagon, some other shapes, but none with marks.  I can relate to MM saying the marked ones are as rare as hen's teeth and appreciate the significance if mine is genuine. ;)

The very first one I bought for something like $20 on EBay is still one of my favorites even though it's most likely fake. I think the cutout on the bottom is probably a clue although the glass always seemed right to me.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Fpinkfaceted.jpg&hash=3c483d4cc958852973382109e86cf834)

There are two others I suspect may be old.  Both of them are extremely light weight. This one the most likely candidate:

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Frubymultifacet.jpg&hash=52a0cdc6545bf53cb9e6dad010141ebb)




 



Title: Re: Christmas in June!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 15, 2017, 06:14:50 am
She was a character! A real no-nonsense New England 'dame'.
But of all the 'little old ladies' in the Society, Alice McReynolds was my favourite. Allie was as no-nonsense and unpretentious as Marian Swayze Mayer, but always unfailingly polite, and a great dinner partner or guest or hostess.