Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Lilla Perry's book had a formative influence on my collecting, and so I am still in search of the mysterious Ku Yueh Hsuan (to take a phrase from her book).

This time I think I got much closer.

The things I was looking for were:
A bit of translucency in the milk glass (especially visible at the neck)
Thin glaze over the enamel
Correct detail, colors, subject matter, and shape
and the right mark on the bottom

I would be curious to get opinions on this bottle. Thanks in advance!



(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2FKuYuehHsuan2.jpg&hash=59930221b031a5cc0219f4e9c6a0d473)

Hi Cathy,

I'm not sure who Ku Yueh Hsuan is. Is Lilla Perry's book worth getting? I have a load books on SBs and I'm wondering at this stage whether it would hold any value for me...

If I had to guess I would say your snuff bottle is modern. The older 18th Century ones I've seen the glass looks very different imo and also the illustrations looks more painterly...  i'm not sure about late 19th century of this type though... also, the colours in my view look off... take my advice with a pinch of salt though :)

Best
Luke

Hi Cathy

Agree with Luke that this is likely a modern bottle.  One giveaway would be the mark on the base, if the lettering is raised it is very likely modern.   It also seems a bit 'simple' in style of painting,  and colors are off.   The white color itself wouldn't exclude it from being old, however...

It is Gu Yue Xuan (Ancient Moon Pavilion) in modern spelling.

Hello Luke

Yes, the Perry book is definitely a must to have, as well as the Hitt book.  Just my input....

Cathy,

I too, have referenced the Perry book quite often, and found it to be informative and entertaining.  It helped me identify my probably not so old Ancient Moon Pavillion glazed bottle too!

Luke, you can purchase her book on Amazon as it's quite affordable.

Cheers,


Rheuben.

Thanks for the info Pat and Rheuben about the book. I just saw one on Amazon here in the UK and got a copy for £5! I've heard a lot of collectors say good things about this book, so glad I ordered a copy. And can't go wrong for £5 :)

Hi Pat - could you explain why you think the colors are off? I know colors are difficult to describe, but specifics would be helpful.

I disagree about the simple style of painting though. The style of the painting seems correct to me. Could you expound on that too?
I also posted this on the facebook Collecting Chinese Snuff Bottle page and am getting a different response there.  One Chinese member posted an example of how the theme is similar to a Wang Xisan sketch. 

Hi Luke,

Lilla Perry's book was considered to be the 'Bible' of snuff bottle collectors for many years. From 1960, when it was first published, until the late 1980s, when many more English language books began appearing, there really wasn't a better reference book for anyone starting out as a bottle collector. And a lot of its content is still valid today.

I paid US$65.00 for my copy in 1972, plus shipping from the publishers in Tokyo, so five quid is indeed a bargain! 

Tom

Hi Cathy,

The chances of finding a genuine Gu Yue Xuan snuff bottle in such pristine condition are extremely slim. I'm not talking about examples in the museums of Taipei and Beijing, which have hardly been handled in 200 years. But if you take a good look at the ones which show up at auction from time to time the enamel is usually faded from wear in the more exposed areas, often quite badly so.

When the inside painting artist Ye Bengqi began making superb copies in the 1930s he was not able to actually handle the bottles, as they were behind the showcase glass!  So he had to guess what was written on the base. Neither did he know that the base marks were wheel-cut and filled with enamel.

Nonetheless, his copies managed to fool the experts for decades, and sometimes still do, for one good reason. He had access to the surplus stock of enamel from the Palace workshops, so was able to reproduce the colours exactly. Some of that 200-year-old stock was still available when Wang Xisan started experimenting with enamels on glass in the early 1960s, before he moved on to inside painting.

Ye Bengqi and Wang Xisan enamel-on-glass copies are now fetching high prices at auction in their own right, as known copies. (A bit like Adrian's fake Monet.  :D)

But there are several talented enamel artists out there today producing excellent bottles. I suspect your posted bottle is one of them. An attractive example, but modern nevertheless.

Tom

Hi Kathy,
frankly I can’t understand you, if I may speak openly. Pat is super correct, the bottle is modern and the painting style speaks clearly. Can I tell you why you are not able to see that by yourself? In my opinion it is because you are keeping your foot in two shoes, as we say (I don’t know if there is the same saying in English), with the problem that in this case the two shoes are very different. If you doubt Pat because someone on Facebook has told you that he likes your bottle, sorry, it means that you do not see the difference between the two shoes. If you post a picture of your cat on Facebook everybody will tell you that it is pretty nice, and most probably even if actually it isn’t. And in general, the main purpose of Facebook is just for things of that level, quite different from a specialized site like this one. You should decide if continue relying on Facebook or made a step more, and trust Pat instead (meaning, by Pat, the whole knowledge of this site).
Kind regards
Giovanni

Tom,

Very true and I know the odds are against it. This bottle has good provenance though - so that made me hopeful that it might be a Ye Benqi or maybe even a Ye Zhongsan produced bottle - because from the articles I have read it appears that there are some by his hand out there. I bought it from the same dealer in New York that I bought the jet bottle from and they say their bottles came from a sale off of bottles from the Met many years ago.

Giovanni,

I would like it very much if we could stick to discussion about the bottles only without criticizing the person. A thoughtful discussion requires input from everyone. I did a lot of research and have opinions that I am constantly re-evaluating. I don't think any collector should blindly follow - questions and discussion further the study of this Chinese art form. I asked Pat to explain his opinions to me so I could learn. And I also would not denegrate the Facebook page. Clare Chu and many other quite knowledgeable collectors participate on that page.

Dear Cathy,
I did criticized Facebook, and I thought that I gave you a suggestion. If you do not like, I am sorry but no problem to me. Personally (may I express my way of seeing things?) I always appreciate when I have a suggestion from somebody else, and the first thing that I ask myself in such case is if the suggestion is good or not, instead of feeling myself offended. If I were in your place in this very case, I would ask myself why it is evident to others that the bottle is modern and not to me. But.. ooops, sorry, I did it again, I gave a suggestion while it seems that you do not like that. Then please apologize.
Giovanni

There are several companies in China Cathy that have started to duplicate this Guyuexuan process.. Seems like for the most part they are all fairly new companies from about the 1980's duplicating this process on snuff bottles like yours, and also vases..

After viewing even just a few, the differences between these and Early Guyuexuan examples and the Modern ones become easier to ID..

I have only ever held two examples... What a pleasure those were to hold  !

George,

Thanks for this picture. Because my focus is on snuff bottles, I didn't realize there were so many other objects being fashioned from enameled glass.

By the way, I have one very similar to the bottle at bottom left. Bought it in Bangkok for around $30! It's very skillfully made, and I am happy to have it.

Tom

I have seen many modern enamel painted on glass bottles that like you and Cathy, I have been attracted to... I am patiently waiting to stumble onto a You Fenghua , or with the same luck, any enamel on glass painted bottle with a student signature.. I understood that You Fenghua had support from her piers to start a student school where the students will apparently be starting to sign these kind of works..  If I only knew how to see these student signed bottles, I would likely start to really pay close attention and collect many.  As any student she were to take into her studio would already be of very high caliber ( previously extra talented student IP artists ) and also likely would be in for the long term ..

So far I am not able to find any information about her newly started school or students...

I would sure like to be able and communicate with her, or Yeo Konghoo who is also apparently active with modern Guyuexuan pieces..

Cathy

The best way I can describe it is that the colors are too harsh, not soft enough.  For example, the rocks and flowers are painted too prominent and the green of the leaves is off for it to be an older example...

Lastly, I don't believe you verified for us the mark, but if it is NOT incised, it is not old.

What Pat said really best describes the difference ... But also, not all are incised..

All,

There are two types of base mark on Gu Yue Xuan wares. One is four characters in blue - similar to the one seen on Cathy's example, which is incised and filled. The other base mark is in red enamel - three characters in a straight line (Gu Yue Xuan) - and NOT incised. On most genuine examples this mark is very worn, in some cases hardly legible.

George,

If you have any luck contacting You Fenghua and her students please let me know!

Tom

Within the most recent, "The Mater Enameller", from last years convention, she mentioned in an interview how she has in fact been looking for apprentices/discipleships, but that is all...

Here is an archived topic from China Mike ( who I miss seeing here ! ) telling that mong the students of Mr. Wang Xisan, that there are four that can paint the Gu Yue Xuan bottles.

The three, Liu Heping, You Fenghua and Ye Aiping only paint the Gu Yue Xuan bottle.
Another one is named Sun Jianguo. He can not paint only the Gu Yue Xuan bottle, but also inside painted snuff bottles.

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2120.msg27024.html#msg27024

Maybe one of our Chinese friends here can help us make contact ?

George,

Thanks for reminding me of the thread shown in this link. I'd quite forgotten!

Tom

I just sent Mike an email asking if he can help ..

Pat, thanks for explaining about the colors. The colors do seem delicate to me in person - but I don't have anything but pictures to compare them to.

I also thought the condition of the enamel was too perfect but had seen many examples on Christie's and other auction sites where the bottles are in pristine condition. On some of them they date them from 1770-1960! Quite a range there!  

I am out of town at the moment and so don't have the bottle with me. I didn't know to check about the base mark being incised so will examine it and report back when I get back home.

I have been really studying the known bottles of Ye Benqi and have a theory that his mark can be distinguished. Again, I am out of town so don't have the pictures with me, but will post them when I return.

I think there is much to be learned from further study and comparison of these bottles - to me there seem to be some distinct artistic markers  between Wang Xisan bottles and Ye Benqi enameled bottles - an example would be the different way they painted rocks. And it appears to me from the pictures I've seen that Xisan used a much brighter green - of course it's alleged that Benqi actually had access to the original enamel colors so his green's would be truer to the actual bottles. So would really like to follow down these paths much more.

George, that would be wonderful to get those connections! Thanks for sharing the link to the previous posts.

Cathy... One of the very best sources of information for you to understand better the current study of Gu Yue Xuan bottles and marks is the Spring ICSBS journal, "Mysteries of the Ancient Moon"..  It is really excellent.. Even includes a face to face interview with Ye Bengqi.

Here it is online..
http://www.e-yaji.com/books/articles/Mysteries%20of%20the%20Ancient%20Moon/index.html

And here is a current copy on eBay..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOURNAL-INTERNATIONAL-CHINESE-SNUFF-BOTTLE-SOCIETY-Spring-2006-Vol-XXXVIII-1-/390477963767

Speaking of Ye Bengqi, you guys might like this short clip of him from 1950...

https://youtu.be/ldEh5sNilIY

In respect of the base marks with three characters in a straight line, there are some variations in these marks as well.

Robert Halls book Chinese Snuff Bottles from 1987 has two examples. One has the mark in black enamel which is on an enamel on pearlised opalescent glass bottle. The other has a relief carved mark in seal script on a plain opaque milk coloured bottle with mask and ring handles.

There are nine examples in the Burghley House collection, all described as "the base inscribed in red guyuexuan" but without any pictures of the marks.

There were two recent examples in the Christie's sale of the Ruth and Carl Barron Collection, Part IV. Both marks were in red enamel although one was rendered differently to normal in being similar to seal script.

The E.B Curtis book, Pure Brightness Shines Everywhere shows an example of the three character mark incised but left plain, so not filled with enamel.   

Regards, Adrian.

Thanks George and Adrian! Great references!

I realize I never replied back about the base of my bottle.
The base is not incised (at least I don't think) but it's not raised either.  It's flat, so I don't know what to make of that.
When I run my finger across, it feels smooth.

I think that this may be a lifelong pursuit that may never have a happy ending, but it doesn't stop me from trying! ;)

Here's a picture of the base sideways so you can see the light reflected on it.
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Fenamelbase.jpg&hash=fdf436b78affa4462d20dc376c18bec9)

I don't think it should be incised unless an older bottle. Seems like they are usually heaped enamel on the base. So for me the flat paint may be a clue that I don't remember.

Yes George, I don't think it's incised - if it were there would be some clues around the edges I imagine. Maybe it's just really thin. hahaha

Oh by the way I got that journal - very informative - thanks.

Lately I have been on a BBB - bottle buying binge! Which is why I'm posting so much.
I have however improved my BBA - bottle batting average to a decent one out of every three I buy and a lot of the bad bottles just come with the good ones too.

However on enameled glass I'm probably 0 to 10, but I console myself that what they lack in value they make up for in enjoyment.

So when I get time, I will continue the thread of shame with more of my enameled glass treasures. ;)

    I still have a bottle I bought in 1982 from Peter Lee of Hong Kong, at the NYC ICSBS convention. It is a very nice enameled glass, #76 in my 1987 catalogue, and was sold to me for US$400 as a work of Ye Bengqi's. And I so attributed it.

   It is definitely NOT by Ye Bengqi, but may well be by Wang Xisan. I have seen students of Wang Xisan's in enameling, which he also taught, having been taught by Ye Bengqi himself, a great master. The signature on your bottle resembles some of their works.

Wow Joey! Thanks!! Your bottle is amazing - do you still have it?

When I first saw this bottle, it reminded me of Ye Bengqi's earliest bottles. Unfortunately I haven't seen many of Wang Xisan's enameled bottles and pictures are hard to find, so thanks for the reference.  I have been saving as many verified signatures from both masters - these are also hard to find.

I will try to put them together and post them here ;)

$400 for a Wang Xisan - wow

Here are some names.. But I am currently having a hard time making contact, learning about other student artists, viewing any signed bottles, or getting prices.  Although of course have seen many of You Fenghua's beautiful bottles in catalogues. 

Liu  Heping, Ye Aiping, You Fenghua and Sun Jianguo are Wang Xisan's students.

Liu Heping has moved to Tianjin City.

Dear George,

Tomi Shen has been able to come up with some amazing references on the FB page. I'm going to ask him if he has any photos of the signatures. I think he may be related to the Xisan family in some way - will get the answer on that too!

   At the time, I thought it was US$400 for a Ye Bengqi!
But you are right - that is a bargain for a Wang Xisan as well. And yes, I do still have the bottle.

   I will be exhibiting it in London in the Collectors' Display at Bonhams (I think). I will be displaying 20 B & Ws; 18 IPSBs, all Middle Period (3 Ding Erzhong, 3 Zhou Leyuan, 3 Ma Shaoxuan,  3 Ma Shaoxian, 4 Ye Zhongsan/Ye Family, 1 Tang Zichuan, possibly one Wang Xisan); and 12 assorted materials, including the enameled glass bottle.  

  

Hi Cathy,

I thought the following pictures might be useful to you as one is a large detail picture which you rarely see.

They are from a Christie's catalogue for a October 2014 sale in Hong Kong of "Important Chinese snuff bottles from a distinguished American collector".

The bottle described as "Imperial, Palace workshops, Beijing, Qianlong blue enamel 4 character mark and of the period, 1750-1780". Guide price $310,00-450,000. Height 1.75 inches.

One thing the text about the bottle mentioned is a common characteristic of the glass on these bottles having concentric rings of more transparent glass between layers of whiter, translucent material which is seen on the lip.

I have 3 modern Guyue xuan bottles, all with the 3 character mark, and they all have the concentric rings showing.

Regards, Adrian.

Thanks Adrian! If you run across any original reign marks please send those too for my collection. ;)

And post your bottles on this thread. I think the more we look at them (old and new) and compare, we improve our chances of making better decisions in the future.

Allow me to share a couple of mine that have me confused! They are probably modern, but so well done! How can one tell the difference? ;)

The top one has transparent layers sandwiched in the glass. The bottom one is translucent pearl like glass. The top one has more of a flat base mark, the bottom one is raised. The enamel is thin on the top, thicker on the bottom. Neither one shows much wear.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Flotusandducks.jpg&hash=95d1aab96cbb291c4f9c116fe93480d8)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flashprodesign.com%2Fchinese%2Fbutterflyandflowers.jpg&hash=7e49181eb6b7c4e2381b50b9f42dcedc)

They are both totally modern, but very well done.

Thanks Joey - they are very pretty and I imagine took a great deal of skill to make. 

I would really like to someday see an authentic enameled glass in person.

Carey Stanley had a few...

Dear Joey,

I have been begging Carey to let me come look at his bottles for almost a year now - ever since I bought the hornbill and still no luck! In his defense he has had some health problems.

I am going to persist and not give up hope because he also has a Ma Shaoxuan, a hornbill dated before 1850, and many other treasures that I would very much like to see in person!!!

I call him every two weeks to check on him, and (since he's a little forgetful) to remind him he promised I could come see them! hahaha

Hopefully, you'll get in to see his treasures. I understand he bought some beautiful
bottles 20-30 years ago, but was not easy to deal with.
Good luck.