Title: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on January 30, 2017, 08:36:04 pm Hello All,
Please hang in with me during what may seem a lot of calculations in this posting. ____________________________ A few weeks ago Joey wrote : “.... in the preface of Wang Xisan's CIPMA (Chinese Inside Painting of the Modern Age) published in early 2006 it is written that 'There are more than 40,000 persons engaging in inside painting art... annual output value ... near RMB 1 Billion' " At first when I read that quote from CIPMA I thought Joey must be mistaken, but then I checked CIPMA and Joey is indeed correct. That's exactly what it says in the preface to CIPMA However, although it's hardly my place to disagree with whoever wrote that originally (it's signed by the Editorial Board of CIPMA) find it completely at variance with fact unless the numbers include factory workers and the general tourist / Christmas trinket / junk IPB business . If you read the first part of my ICSBS article, which you can access in the sidebar, you will see that when I analyzed my DB I found about 950 artists, of which about 670 were real names and about 280 were alternate art names (thus total about 670 real artists, some of whom also use alternate art names when they signed bottles). This covers the whole 60 year period of MIPBs Although my DB is far from exhaustive (particularly regarding very minor artists from the period 1985 - 2000 when I was not collecting and there were a lot of new-but-very-short-lived artists) it's now very rare that I come across a name that I cannot eventually find in my DB when the exact Pin Yin is clarified And when I do occasionally come across a new artist it's almost invariably a very minor one - e.g. a student who painted a few bottles and then quickly dropped out. (If you check Bill Patrick's website www.snuffbottlecollector.com you will find a lot of junior artists there who painted while Bill was doing the bulk of his collecting and visiting Hengshui in the early 2000s, but who have now completely vanished). So I reckon that at maximum there were / are at very most only 2,000 (maybe only 1,500 ?) real MIPB artists who ever painted including all the students who dropped out after painting a few bottles which they bothered to sign (or have had signed by their Master , e.g. Da Yong signed hundreds - if not thousands - of his students bottles either with his name or with another art name (e.g. the Liu Jianghua scam - over 2,500 bottles signed "Liu Jianghua" which were in fact painted by students of Da Yong in Hengshui - see separate thread) More to the point, at any one time there were/are only 200 - 300 artists of any significance actively painting, of which only 100 (maximum 150) were/are serious "big names" whose work was/is worth collecting. Whenever I have been to exhibitions of VMIPBs in China I have seen only 50 - 70 artists exhibiting, and usually it was the same "core" group of top 30 + artists. So I am convinced that the "40,000" artists and the "RMB 1 billion" annual output includes the tourist and trinket trade factory workers (although I have yet to see any such factory myself) Actually a simple back-of-the envelope calculation confirms this. Assuming about 40,000 factory workers who each paint two bottles per day and dividing that into RMB1 Billion gives an average price of RMB30 (= about US$5) per bottle. I reckon that RMB30 /US$5 is meant in CIPMA to be the sale price by the time the bottle reaches retailers so assuming a 3:1 mark-up between the factory and the retail price to cover the profits of the intermediate traders, the ex-factory price is about RMB 10 per bottle. 2 x bottles per day per worker = 60 bottles per month = RMB 600 per month per worker (not including factory overheads ), which was indeed the average factory worker wage in the mid 2000s. ..... I think you can see how the numbers work out very roughly. At the time CIPMA was published in 2006 the 116 artists listed were probably on average selling their bottles to collectors and/or dealers at about RMB1,000 - 2,000 each and were painting at the rate of about 10 - 20 bottles per year. Assuming upper figures : 20 bottles x RMB2,000 p.a. = RMB40,000 p.a. = about RMB 3,500 p.m., which is roughly what I estimated the average middle-ranking artist was earning in the mid-late 2000s : RMB 3,500 - 4,500 p.m. based on their apartments and standard of living. (The very few top masters were of course earning much more, but not significantly more : perhaps RMB 10 -12K p.m. ?) Assume 100 - 150 x active real artists @ RMB40,000 p.a. annual selling price output per artist in 2006 : that = about RMB5 million p.a. which is only 0.5% of the "RMB 1 Billion" total industry quoted in CIPMA. So there is no way that the work of the real artists can add up to "RMB 1 Billion" To repeat:these are back-of-the-envelope calculations but you can see how the numbers make general sense. Another indirect cross-confirmation is the fact that when I was collecting in the period 2006 - 2010 and was still buying many of my bottles from specialist VMIPB shops (as opposed to buying direct from artists or specialist dealers like Jill and Li Hui) I found only a couple of specialist shops : one in Beijing and one in Shanghai. On the other hand there were at least 2 -3 dozen other shops selling tourist trade bottles in amongst all the usual tourist trade stone carvings, paintings etc in each of those cities, not to mention all the hotel lobby gift shops. (And that's only BJ and SH : what about Nanjing, Guangzhou, and all the other major tourist cities ?) Let's take BJ as an example and say that there were in total about 1,000 tourist shops and hotel gift shops each selling about 10 bottles per year = 10,000 per year At those two specialist shops I mentioned in BJ and SH, they each had over 500 + good quality "tourist" bottles for sale, but only about maximum 10 x bottles at any one time by real artists (i.e. the kind of artists whose names appeared in CIPMA) and they only sold at most 5 x bottles by real artists per year. I know that because I often saw the same bottles for sale for many months (and in one supreme case : my Song Yiming goldfish bottle was on sale for 2 years because its list price was RMB15,000, until I finally bought it) So again, taking BJ as an example : the ratio of bottles by real artists to total tourist-trade bottles was very roughly 5:10,000 = 0.5% . Same ball-park. _________________ So after that very long screed I have two questions : 1. Does anyone else have some anecdotal information to corroborate (or otherwise) my rough calculations? 2. Has anyone ever visited a VMIPB factory in China ? (I haven't, but I would be very interested to visit one) Cheers Peter PS: Corrections also welcomed to my ball-park calculations Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on January 30, 2017, 08:42:57 pm Peter
Interesting thread and it seems logical to me .. the numbers indeed work out roughly. You are very likely correct! As to your final questions I do not have any information factual or anecdotal to as other than I was told these factories do exist . Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: rpfstoneman on January 30, 2017, 09:08:40 pm " Quote Engaging in inside painting art." Peter, It seems you are only accounting for snuff bottles. That is not what is said by the CIPMA above. I've seen hordes of IP Christmas ornaments, and other things such as balls, bottles, etc., each year. As you mentioned I think the quoted number goes beyond just bottles. Your IP bottle analysis seems reasonable though. Charll Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on January 31, 2017, 01:33:13 am Hi Charll,
Valid comment - thanks. I was sort of mentally including all the IP Christmas ornaments, inside painted balls, globes etc which somehow find their way to the West (well, at least to the USA, because I have never seen any in England during the few times I have been back there in the past 20-odd years) Cheers Peter Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: George on January 31, 2017, 08:15:25 am I would like very much to visit the inside of one of these snuff bottle factories.. Also would like very much to see first hand some carving factories works and tools used..
Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on January 31, 2017, 05:42:28 pm Hi George,
Well.... if you ever visit China I am sure that besides going to Hengshui we could arrange to visit couple of IPB factories ! I don't have contacts in the stone carving field, but I know people who do have contacts BTW: Bill Patrick has a DVD on how IP bottles are carved / bored out . You can approach Bill to buy a copy. However, the boring out process is horribly dirty and messy, with glass or crystal dust flying everywhere. That's not a job I would like, but it makes one appreciate how much work goes into an IPB even before it gets into the hands of an artist. Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: forestman on February 03, 2017, 12:52:34 pm Hi George,
Same for me in wanting to visit somewhere making the modern agate bottles and glass overlays as well. I have found some bits on U tube, one of an amber bottle being carved and hollowed for internal painting but can't access it at present. Here's one of a very small overlay vase being made and carved which is as close to a snuff bottle that I can get ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhrNZpcuIjs Regards, Adrian. Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Steven on February 03, 2017, 01:16:56 pm Great Video Adrian!
Thanks for sharing! Steven Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: forestman on February 03, 2017, 04:53:35 pm That was a normal "cut and paste" which you should have had to click on to access. Not sure why it came up as it did and very sorry if it has used up any valuable space which I appreciate costs money.
Regards, Adrian. Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: NE collector on February 03, 2017, 05:35:30 pm Hi Adrian,
Thank you for sharing the video. I enjoyed it very much! Regards, Toni-Lee Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on February 03, 2017, 09:04:58 pm Thanks Adrian! This really makes us appreciate ANY and all snuff bottle that is hand made or finished like this, whether old or new .
Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: George on February 04, 2017, 02:15:55 pm Thanks for that video Adrian... Really enjoyed that..
Yes, when you copy and paste a video link the forum's software changes it so the video actually shows up.. No worries at all... Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: OIB on February 05, 2017, 01:21:55 am Dear Peter,
Could you cut and paste the Chinese version of the preface regarding the 40,000 figure ? I believe the word ' persons ' you quoted very likely refers to the total workforce engaged in the IPB business. It is likely that the term used is ' 工作人员 ‘ or ’ 参与者 ‘, that includes the professional / semi-professional artists / painters. Inn Bok Title: Re: Factories making VMIPBs Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on February 05, 2017, 03:11:32 am Hi Inn Bok,
Please see attached The term used seems to be 业 人 员 which I think translates as "industry" Cheers Peter |