Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Porcelain and Yixing Chinese Snuff Bottles 瓷器和宜兴鼻烟壶 => Topic started by: guest603 on January 29, 2017, 02:56:20 pm



Title: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: guest603 on January 29, 2017, 02:56:20 pm
Hello  :D I just found this bottle not to long ago. I was told it is old but not kangxi as it appears  to be marked? Does anyone have any knowledge on its age and meaning of painting. Thank you!


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on January 29, 2017, 03:56:37 pm
Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on January 29, 2017, 04:02:42 pm
Dear Elisha,
looking again at your bottle. I see the bats on the rim. Bats with those dots representing eyes are usually seen on late 19th/early 20th century ware, a time where Kangxi ware was replicated. May be your bottle is from that period.
Giovanni


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Wattana on January 30, 2017, 05:17:25 am
Dear Giovanni,

An interesting observation. But I do not see the bats' "eyes". Are you talking about the mouth rim?

Regards,
Tom


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Luke on January 30, 2017, 05:24:53 am
I like the look of these soft paste porcelains. Surely it is at the least a post 1800s bottle? So definitely not Kangzi as this would be a very rare bottle? I was thinking 1850-1890...

DISCLAIMER - newbie opinion :D


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Luke on January 30, 2017, 05:44:41 am
Also, does the illustration on this bottle not refer to the legend of Sima Guang depicted by the big vat of water depicted on the bottle here?

Wiki link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Guang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Guang)

Also another bottle here which has a similar illustration:
http://www.espace4.com/en/collections/porcelain-soft-paste-snuff-bottle-sima-guang-legend/ (http://www.espace4.com/en/collections/porcelain-soft-paste-snuff-bottle-sima-guang-legend/)


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on January 30, 2017, 07:24:36 am
Dear Luke,
you may be right about the Sima Guang motif because of the presence of the jar. I thought that it was the hundred boys motif because it is common under Kangxi reign and the boys are depicted that way.
Dear Tom, here below you can see the dot eyes of the bats. Those separated dot eyes are seen on baths of the 19th century. Although rare, some even during Daoguang, but they are very common during Guangxu. Since there was a revival of Kangxi style motifs and type of decoration during Guangxu, most probably the bottle in question here is Guangxu, or a bit earlier. It is in any case an interesting bottle to study. Let see if others have seen something similar. 
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Wattana on January 30, 2017, 07:43:34 am
Dear Giovanni,

So small! I was looking for dots of a larger size.

Thank you.
Tom



Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: rpfstoneman on January 30, 2017, 11:08:23 am
All, I'll weigh in here briefly.

Luke you are right about the Sima Guang motif.

Quote
Since there was a revival of Kangxi style motifs and type of decoration during Guangxu, most probably the bottle in question here is Guangxu, or a bit earlier.

Upon initial view I would agree with Giovanni's statements and dating. 

Lovely soft paste with some age, but not as crisp in the design and tonal elements that you generally see in a late 1700's to early 1800 piece.

Charll 


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on January 30, 2017, 05:22:29 pm
Dear Elisha,
 
     There are definitely Kangxi mark and period bottles in enamel on copper.
Offhand, I can't remember ever having seen a Kangxi mark and period B & W porcelain SB.
      I've not commented here before, even though I collect B & Ws as a specialty (I have over 150, and have a catalogue by the late Robert Kleiner, "In Search of a Dragon"), because when I tap on the thumbnail pics, they expand so large I have to search around for the image. And the huge hand creeps me out...  ::)
Sorry.
Joey


Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni



Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: George on January 31, 2017, 08:19:35 am


Lovely soft paste with some age, but not as crisp in the design and tonally elements that you generally see in a late 1700's to early 1800 piece.



When Luke first asked me about this one, I suggested it from Jingdezhen kilns, but at the same time I did notice the lack of crisp painting.. But ignored it and told Luke this was earlier than it is..

Sorry for the poor information Luke..  Glad you found more out about it here..


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Luke on January 31, 2017, 08:44:41 am
I'd like to own this bottle George, but it's not mine unfortunately :) Do you mean Elisha?

Luke


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: George on January 31, 2017, 04:19:05 pm
Do you mean Elisha?



Ah.., ok.  It was Elisha  :)


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 01, 2017, 07:01:09 am
Soft Paste Porcelain could come from the Jingdezhen Kilns, but could equally have been made elsewhere.
More commonly, it was Hard Paste Porcelain that was made in Jingdezhen.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: guest603 on February 04, 2017, 09:26:18 am
Dear Giovanni,

Thank you so much for telling me about the bottle. What a good eye on the bat eyes. I couldn't tell until I wiped the top part a little!

Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni



Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: guest603 on February 04, 2017, 09:27:07 am
I just looked up the legend how interesting thank you:)

Also, does the illustration on this bottle not refer to the legend of Sima Guang depicted by the big vat of water depicted on the bottle here?

Wiki link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Guang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Guang)

Also another bottle here which has a similar illustration:
http://www.espace4.com/en/collections/porcelain-soft-paste-snuff-bottle-sima-guang-legend/ (http://www.espace4.com/en/collections/porcelain-soft-paste-snuff-bottle-sima-guang-legend/)


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: guest603 on February 04, 2017, 09:28:39 am
Dear Joey, your collection sounds incredible! I am just starting out trying to not make too many mistakes, so happy I found this forum!
Dear Elisha,
 
     There are definitely Kangxi mark and period bottles in enamel on copper.
Offhand, I can't remember ever having seen a Kangxi mark and period B & W porcelain SB.
      I've not commented here before, even though I collect B & Ws as a specialty (I have over 150, and have a catalogue by the late Robert Kleiner, "In Search of a Dragon"), because when I tap on the thumbnail pics, they expand so large I have to search around for the image. And the huge hand creeps me out...  ::)
Sorry.
Joey


Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni



Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 04, 2017, 10:49:19 am
Dear Elisha,

      That bottle, while NOT Kangxi period, is a very desirable example, and probably from the Guangxu reign (ca. 1874-1908). Many times, fake marks were painted on otherwise superb examples.  In my catalogue of 110 bottles, 24 have marks that CAN'T be right, but the bottles are superb examples, none the less.

    One simply doesn't describe them as correct mark and period. That solves the problem.

    I have a bunch of genuine marked examples (from Yongzheng, Qianlong, Jiaqing, Daoguang, Xianfeng, Tongzhi, and Guangxu reigns), as well as an unmarked example that may well be genuine Kangxi (dated ca.1690-1735 by the late Robert Kleiner in an 'Arts of Asia' article in 2012).
As well, I've a couple with Yongzheng marks that could be genuine mark and period, though the present 'accepted wisdom' in the snuff bottle world is that they are not.
   
      At the time of your bottle (ca.1880-1910), there was a lot of interest in the Kangxi wares, because the Dowager Empress Cixi admired them, and she was very influential from the 1860s to her death in 1908, a few days after the death of the Guangxu Emperor (they both died of the flu, which killed a lot of people in those times).

     Best,
Joey
   


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: richy88 on March 16, 2023, 02:00:34 am
Hi all

I was browsing through some old threads that I missed earlier and came across this post.

While a hundred boys were a common motif in Chinese art, this bottle is not of the subject.

In the third photo, you see a boy falling into a big water jar. This is the story of Sima Guang from the Northern Song dynasty.

When he was playing with some companions, one of the boys fell into the jar. While the others panicked, Sima was quick enough to pick up a rock and smashed the jar so that the boy would not be drowned in the water. His quick thinking and actions managed to save the boy from the disaster.

Sima Guang later became the chief minister in the Song court.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard









Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 18, 2023, 05:13:38 pm
Dear Richard,

     Thank you for fleshing out the Sima Guang story.
Now I understand why your comment in another thread was over 6 years
after the main thread - you are rereading the threads!
Wow, I'm again impressed!.
Best,
joey


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: wangcaih on September 16, 2023, 05:43:10 am
Hi,
I agree with Joey. It's a typically bottle with B&W and Ge glaze from the 2. half of 19.C..


Title: Re: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 17, 2023, 05:08:21 pm
Dear Wangcaih,

   Welcome.
Have you introduced yourself in the Lounge,
so that we can welcome you more officially?

Incidentally, I tend to date most 19th C. snuff bottles in one of three periods:
1. The Jiaqing Emperor's reign [ca.1800-1820].
 
2.  ca. 1820 to 1855, ie. the Daoguang Emperor's reign
and first five years of the Xianfeng Emperor's reign,
before the Taiping criminals destroyed Jingdezhen and its kilns,
and murdered all those they didn't take away into slavery,
while running away from the Qing government forces who'd come
to liberate Jingdezhen's ruins.

3. ca.1865 - 1911, from the Tongzhi Emperor's rebuilding and
re-establishment of Jingdezhen with its porcelain production to
the end of the Qing Dynasty.

Best,
Joey