Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Gem, Stone, Rock and Fossil => Topic started by: forestman on January 18, 2017, 07:51:01 am



Title: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on January 18, 2017, 07:51:01 am
Thought I would share my 2 Malachite bottles, both of which are very small, 39mm without the stopper for the right hand bottle.

The stopper on the left one is glued in and was auctioned at the same time as a very nice lacque burgaute one with the stopper glued and a label glued to the back. They were the property of a titled collector, Sir someone or other, although the term collector shouldn't be applied here as someone who defaces objects of art in this way is not a collector, should be stripped of his title and booted square in his Gentlemans area as far as I'm concerned.

To put the size in context, the lion's face without the ring on which is carved on the left bottle is 8mm high. There is a tortoise carved on one side and a butterfly on the other, both symbols of longevity and also of joy in the case of the butterfly.

While I admired the work put into the carving on the left bottle, I prefer the unadorned right one which simply lets the material it was worked in speak for itself.

Both I would think are contemporary.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: AntPeople on January 18, 2017, 08:15:33 am
The plain bottle has Beautiful pattern !

Thanks for sharing

Pin


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: rpfstoneman on January 18, 2017, 09:47:49 am
Quote
Both I would think are contemporary.

Adrian, you would be correct in the above comment. The bottle shapes, designs, carving quality, and the clean polished surface lacking an aged patina, are screaming contemporary to me.  I would judge these to be post 1970. 

I know the one stopper is glued.  There are solvents that will loosen the stopper and can be used to clean the glue residue.   

Can you indicate how much effort went into hollowing?  I would suspect that the inside hollowed area was simply a left in a rough ground unpolished state.   

Charll


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on January 18, 2017, 12:37:52 pm
Thank you Pin.

I was in South Africa recently and there is a lot of Malachite on offer there but the patterning on the things I looked at were bland in comparison to the right hand bottle.

Hi Charll,

Obviously I can only report on the right hand bottle. It is fairly well hollowed although they left weight in the base which is needed due to the size of the bottle, it is dwarfed by my other bottles. The height of the neck makes it impossible to get right into the sides to hollow them higher in the bottle and the inside is relatively rough.

The size of the bottles means that even if they were well hollowed they couldn't hold a meaningful amount of snuff. There is an ivory spoon on the right bottle but the bottles are so small you could just insert one in each nostril and tip your head back to get your snuff fix.

Regards, Adrian.



Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: albert on January 18, 2017, 01:23:46 pm
The bottle located in the right of the picture presents a really beautiful pattern, indeed malachite is one of my fauvorite stones!!

Thanks for sharing :D


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on January 18, 2017, 01:44:13 pm
Dear Adrian,

     I agree that they are contemporary, but the markings are so beautiful.
I am not happy to hear that someone who considered himself a collector was so dismissive as to damage the bottles that way.
Especially the Lacque Burgaute. How are you to remove something glued onto a surface made up of tiny pieces of mother of pearl and foil? That is shameful.
Thank you for posting them.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on January 19, 2017, 09:50:09 am
Dear Joey and Albert,

Thank you both for your comments. Whilst the beauty of so many snuff bottles are the result of artists and craftsmen working together, sometimes it just needs a craftsman and mother nature to do the job.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on January 19, 2017, 12:37:07 pm
That is very true, Adrian.
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey and Albert,

Thank you both for your comments. Whilst the beauty of so many snuff bottles are the result of artists and craftsmen working together, sometimes it just needs a craftsman and mother nature to do the job.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: George on January 19, 2017, 05:25:32 pm
Better than average pattern on the right bottle.. Really nice !

I am not sure I understand why the carver found it necessary to leave the bottom part of the bottle non hollowed because of it's size.

I will guess that it has a flat base, and agree with Charll's post 1970 dating.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on January 20, 2017, 03:58:59 am
Hi George,

You're right in not understanding why it wasn't hollowed down to the base as I have delved around inside it with a cocktail stick and it is hollowed all the way down.

It's so small that you can't really tell where the weight in it is but is heavier than you would expect for it's size and considering it's well hollowed. The weight is in the shoulders which due to the length of the neck couldn't be worked. And yes, a flat base. I wouldn't have been brave enough to take the thinness of the malachite in the neck to where the carver did, as a material it seems relatively brittle.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Rube on August 09, 2017, 09:57:07 am
Hi Everyone,

Because I haven't posted a bottle in awhile (like a few days) I'm sharing a malachite bottle with you on this thread.  Adrian, I like both of your bottles, especially the second!

My bottle, measuring 2 3/8",  is of tapered spade form with a slightly flared neck, and sitting on a splayed oval recessed foot rim.  I can identify the ruyi heads, but the rest of the carving I'm not sure about.  I mean, do the elongated c scrolls have symbolism?  Is this what is considered "archaistic"?

Until I pulled out the broken spoon, I would have guessed this to be an older bottle, but I found it to also not be super well hollowed.  As Bob Stevens wrote that contemporary malachite bottles were of darker material and not well hollowed, is this a correct assumption on my part?  It was purchased in 1952.

Also, I'd like to ask the group their thoughts about switching out the jade stopper with one made of lapis?  Thoughts?

Cheers,

Rube.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: George on August 09, 2017, 10:46:08 am
Wonderful bottle Rube.. I have always like malachite..

I believe yours was likely carved about the time of purchase. Lovely shape.

The elongated C scrolls and the short C's that are joined together both either represent silk worms and or cloud scrolls.

Not sure about a blue lapis stopper matching the green.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Luke on August 09, 2017, 10:59:11 am
Hi Rube,

Great looking bottle... I love the jade stopper - definitely wouldn't swap it out. I know many of the more exotic materials correlate with later bottles... I thought initially the bottle is probably 19th or early 20th... regardless a really nice bottle imo...

Luke

PS: when you mention the hollowing is not great - is it still reasonably hollowed inside? How heavy is the bottle?


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on August 09, 2017, 11:17:53 am
Hi Rube,

I like your bottle as well and I'm wondering if it may be made of Turquoise which can be quite green in colour, there's something about the texture of the surface about it that doesn't look as Malachite as it might !!!!

I wouldn't go for a lapis stopper but it's a personal choice and your call in the end.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Rube on August 09, 2017, 11:44:43 am
Thanks for your comments everyone!  I guess I'll just have to save up for a nice lapis bottle, as I'd like to have one in my collection (the next Bonhams auction has a dandy, but it's estimated well out of my range). 

George,
Thanks for identifying the c scrolls.  (I love the green glass bottles with blue overlay, that's what I was going for by changing the top.)

Luke,
It's heavy, I was wondering about the hollowing being poor, because of the tapered shape of the bottle? It's more than just a core drilling, however.

Adrian,
I'm calling it malachite, because that's how my grandmother labeled it.  My grandfather was a geologist, though I doubt he tested the specific gravity on it.  I should probably test it, as a friend recently suggested it might be chloromelanite? The second picture shows how it goes lighter in the middle, which I thought looked like malachite.  I hadn't thought about turquoise...

cheers,
Rube


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Luke on August 09, 2017, 12:36:47 pm
Rube,

About the material - I'm sure your grandfather certainly knew his stuff. Interestingly I can't see any evidence of the circling pattern I'm used to seeing with malachite. Your bottle actually reminds me a lot of the material in this link:

http://www.cottoneauctions.com/lots/8617/spinach-jade-snuff-bottle

Luke


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Rube on August 09, 2017, 12:40:21 pm
Luke,

It certainly does!

Cheers,

Rube.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: George on August 09, 2017, 02:38:20 pm
Maybe a light scratch test to confirm.. Malachite is very soft..


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Rube on August 09, 2017, 03:19:39 pm
George,

Thanks, I'll try that. 

So, I've been so curious about your comments that I actually retrieved the bottle and tested its specific gravity.
It weighs 3.2 oz, and I incorrectly measured it, it's actually 2 1/2" tall w/o stopper.  Interestingly, it's specific gravity, if I tested correctly, is 3.21, much closer to jade than malachite.  You people are GOOD! And, it appears that I'm batting around
.150...

Cheers,
Rube.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 09, 2017, 03:28:48 pm
Dear Rube,

     My vote would have been Chloromelanite or Spinach green jade. And I'd have dated it ca. 1920-1952. I think it could be Republic of China, though it could also be early PRC.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on August 09, 2017, 03:49:16 pm
Hi Rube,

I think Luke has it right. I queried it because the surface texture around the neck where there is less carving looked rougher than Malachite which seems to take a good smooth polish.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Rube on August 10, 2017, 02:17:41 am
Adrian and Joey,

I agree with the chloromelanite assessment. This bottle definitely exhibits different levels of luster especially the lighter areas.  Interested to learn that this metamorphic rock wasn't classified until the early 60's. Oh well, guess I need to add malachite to my wish list, too.

Cheers,

Rube.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Luke on August 10, 2017, 06:31:59 am
Yeah, Adrian called it when he noticed it wasn't malachite.... Interesting material chloromelanite, which is essentially jadeite? And according to wiki, a dark green jade... I think I much prefer this material to malachite though Rube :)

Is the Bonham's auction you refer to in New York in September? I can't seem to see any of the upcoming lots though..

Cheers
Luke


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 10, 2017, 06:52:02 am
Dear Rube,

    The bottle really looks beautifully carved to me. If it had not already been in your grandmother's collection in 1952, I would probably have gone along with George's opinion that it was later. In fact, I'd have said 1980s/1990s. But the 1952 purchase date means it is probably closer to 1920-1935, because of the sophisticated design and quality of carving.

    I'm glad it is not Malachite, because the markings would detract from the carving, and the carving would detract from the markings.
I love plain Malachite bottles with good markings.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Rube on August 10, 2017, 11:07:48 am
Joey,

Thanks for help with the dating of the bottle.  I really like the carving on it, too.  And, I'm going to keep my eye out for a plain malachite bottle with nice markings.

Luke,
It's weird, because, I scrolled thru the auction items on Monday, and yes, they have temporarily disappeared. Not sure why?  The auction is scheduled for Sept. 11, I think.

George,
Per scratch test, it is not easily scratched, yet again confirming it to not be malachite. 

Cheers,
Rube.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Luke on May 30, 2019, 10:11:03 am
Sharing a malachite bottle. This bottle is small - maybe 4-5cms high (sorry I'm at work, so best guess). I originally dismissed this bottle, as it came in a lot and I was never the biggest malachite fan, but it feels really nice to hold in the hand - very much like a small pebble. It's quite heavy and the hollowing is sufficient to hold snuff IMO, but not well hollowed. It has a concave foot and if you look at the photos I've highlighted an area where there is a large indent in the side of the bottle as if the carver simply worked his way around the shape of the stone. Any opinions on age on this one please?

Best
Luke


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: forestman on June 04, 2019, 04:12:01 pm
Hi Luke,

My instinct goes towards newer from the carving and shape but Malachite is an attractive material to me.

Regards, Adrian.


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Luke on June 06, 2019, 02:11:29 am
Hi Adrian,

Thanks for your comment. That was initially my first instinct too and I think you are likely right about that. Yeah, I made an early mistake on a malachite bottle when I first started collecting and it weirdly put me off - I paid a bit for it. I think I’m finding the love again as I like this one even though it’s not an old one :)

Best
Luke


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 07, 2019, 04:51:07 pm
    I agree - this bottle is ca. 1950s to 1970s, a period when the PRC needed foreign currency, and was importing minerals cheaply to produce craft items for export.

    From the early 1950s to the mid-1960s, the USSR was supplying malachite and Lapis Lazuli material from the Urals. From the mid-1960s till the end of the construction of the Tan-Zam Railroad, they were getting Malachite material from Zambia, along with Ruby Zoisite matrix. That's why we see so many simply but pleasingly carved bottles from these materials from this time frame [1950-1976].

 Whoever has YF Yang & Co catalogues from ca. 1968 to 1978, will see lots of bottles on offer.
Let me see if I can find some to post.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Luke on June 17, 2019, 04:03:29 am
Dear Joey,

I've been on holiday for a few weeks, so apologies for the lack of reply. As ever, thanks very much for the detailed info. I'll try and hunt down some of the catalogues you mention, so I can have a look for myself. Glad to hear you are well again after reading a few of the other posts on the forum.

Best,
Luke


Title: Re: Two Malachite bottles
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 17, 2019, 02:13:11 pm
Dear Luke,

   No problem.
Best,
Joey