Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Dear all,

I've been having this one for 10 months now. I think it's about time for me to show it to everyone and it's a good one to mark the end of 2016 in my opinion.

This is a four color Yangzhou glass overlay bottle comprising blue, pink, brown and green overlays with a "Ji Xiang" seal on one of its side (Ji Xiang 吉祥 - means good luck). On one side it's a lotus pond with goldfishes swimming in it and dragonflies flying around the lotus flowers. Depicted on the seal side are two persons on a boat in the form of a lotus leaf?/wood branch? and Taihu rock next to a bridge.

This bottle is really special to me, I consider it the first quality bottle I got in the true sense. Thus my holy grail... ;)

Enjoy!

Best and Happy New Year to all of you!

Samson

P.S. The last pic is a screenshot taken from the auction house's webpage.

Samson,

From the photos it appears to me to be a great bottle illustrating a number of attributes that typify Yangzhou glass bottles.  The maker/artist did an exceptional job with the carvings in balancing the design within the multicolored glass usage.  Looks like it even has an old catalog number on the base.  Does it has the provenance of the collector as well?

Charll

Absolutely beautiful Samson.  Very nice.....Congrats!

Thanks Charll & Pat!

Charll, I agree with what you said. The carvings were indeed well executed by the maker/artist. The overall profile of the bottle looks pleasant to me and the colors are well balanced.

Regarding the provenance, I was given to understand that the bottle was from the collection of a collector in Connecticut. But not sure who, hopefully this information I got together with the catalog number that remained at the bottom of the bottle would help me to find out eventually. Or I should probably ask the auction house... The is the first bottle I got with catalog number from the previous collector. Did he apply it with a special paint or something? ???

Best wishes,
Samson

Dear Samson,

       I'm sorry but I don't remember this bottle. Did you show it to me? Might be a 'senior moment'. ;D
Usually the older collectors used nail polish in a dark colour.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Did I or did I not?... It may be a case of 'senior moment' for me too... :D ;D
Anyway, what do you think about it?

Nail polish? Wow, didn't know that! I'm inclined to leave the mark there as it's may be be useful in tracing the provenance in the future.. Who knows? ::)

Best,
Samson

Dear Samson,

       It looks 'right' (ie., ca.1820-1880), but I'd need to handle it to be able to be more sure.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Sure! I'll make sure this will be first bottle you will be shown the next time you visit me!  ;)

Best,
Samson

Wonderful bottle Samson.. !

They sure went through a lot to make this one.  Looks like they dipped the top part of the bottle, and also dipped the lower part with yet another color, then blotted additional areas as well..

Beautiful bottle and congratulations !

Congratulations Samson! A beautiful bottle! And quite an interesting color combination. I don't think I've ever seen brown combined with the brighter colors.

Samson,

Get back in touch with the auction house on the previous owner and any further provenance information.  Sometime they have this information and will release it, sometimes not!  Anyway you will not know unless you ask.  I make this a standard question while arranging payment of auction house bottles.

Charll

A beautiful bottle Samson - congratulations!

It is a good idea to leave any old collector marks or stickers in place until you can establish ownership. Then, and only then, you can decide whether the remove it or keep it as part of the bottle's 'history'.

I had one bottle with a mystery sticky label which was quite distinctive, so I asked if anyone on the forum could identify it. Nobody could. Two years later another bottle with the same label came up for auction, and this one named the provenance. So the mystery was solved!

I have another bottle with an old collector's label on it. It's been in my collection for over 30 years, and I'm still optimistic of one day discovering who it once belonged to!

All best,
Tom

Dear all,

Thanks a lot!

Dear Charll and Joey,

Yes I shall get back in touch with the auction house to see if they can inform me of the specific provenance of the bottle. I will make every effort to do that for every bottle I'll buy from now on. One hard truth, I won't know unless I ask...

Dear Tom,

It's very interesting to know how you've managed to helped your bottle find its lost "once upon a time family member"... ::) Yes, I do think such marks represent part of a bottle's history. So I will leave it there.

Best to all,
Samson

Dear Samson,

      Think of the marks like a previous collector putting his chop and possibly a colophon on an antique scroll.
Best,
Happy Hanuka,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Right, like Emperor Qianlong stamping his imperial appreciation seals on many masterpieces of Chinese paintings and calligraphy scrolls... ;)

Best,
Happy Hanukkah,
Samson

Exactly!  Though he really defaced a lot of fine art treasures with his mediocre prose and poetry...  ;D
But same idea.
Main reason I don't stick anything on my snuff bottles, and try to get them photographed as a way of documenting them.
Best,
Happy Hanuka, Happy New Lunar Month of Tevet, and Happy 2017 tomorrow night.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Dear Samson,
I really hope to be wrong, but since the beginning I am not sharing the enthusiasm of everybody here about your bottle. It is plenty of similar bottles on ebay, and I am not finding the carving so well made as typical for old bottles. Again, I really hope to be wrong, but is it an old bottle in your opinion? Please look carefully for some sign of natural wear on the foot and on the highest relief parts. Can you show the spoon?
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

I appreciate your comment but I am very convinced that it is an old bottle. And I'm thrilled about its fine condition despite its age. The form and shape of the bottle itself is typical Yangzhou as we may see, so are the carvings and subjects. I have another Yangzhou bottle to compare it with. It's consistent with it in all the above aspects but this one is even better in the execution of carving and the choice of subjects.

Since I acquired it, I had shown it to Robert Hall and a prominent collector in Singapore who both commented that it is a genuine Yangzhou glass overlay of fine quality.

On the other hand, I'm trying to get back in touch with the auction house from which I bought it to enquire about its specific provenance and expect them to reply after the new year holiday. Provenance is a magic bullet! All I know about its provenance now is it's from the collection of a collector in Connecticut and that's it.

Anyway, I believe you'll change your view about it when you get to see it in person!

Happy New Year!
Best wishes for 2017!
Samson

P.S. And here we go pics of the bottle with its stopper and spoon next to it as you requested.

Dear Samson,
I am happy for you, but modestly I keep my own ideas. I can tell you one thing that I did learn during the years, on my own expense: not always blind trust experts. I perfectly know, it sounds like a blasphemy in the case of Worldwide known experts, but believe me, I had totally, proved ridiculous answers from really top scholars.
I may be totally wrong of course, because I am judging an object by pictures alone, but I don’t see that high quality carving on your bottle and, most important, I don’t see the old style of shaping and I don’t see the old patina/feeling. You said that you are convinced that it is an old bottle, but you didn’t say if you are seeing the signs of age. It seems that you are convinced that it is old because of the shape, carving etc. That is not the same. If you think that the carving of your bottle is of high quality, what about this one then? See the first three pictures below. It is on ebay, from China, free shipping and so on, all the typical things that tells us that it is modern. But no doubt another class of carving quality.
The fourth picture below shows an obviously modern bottle. It is obvious by the type of carving and its finishing. Look at the green lotus leaf. In my opinion it is of the same type of your bottle, and if we judge for example by the brown lotus leaf of your bottle (see last picture), even a bit better.
Dear Samson it is plenty of modern bottles nowadays, everywhere. Coming from an Auction house doesn’t mean that it is a good, old object. I see so many everywhere, and even bought some and posted here. The glass imitating silhouette agate that I did post a couple of days ago, for example, has been judged as modern by Joey, despite its nice shape, small size, very good carving. I did not inspect it in detail as I do with lens etc, but he is much probably right, because my immediate reaction, in handling it, has been “what a pretty nice bottle”. It has not been “wow, this is an old one!”. 
Sorry but we are a community of friends sharing love for these objects, and it is right to openly share our opinion. If I am wrong, then I am happy for you.
Kind regards
Giovanni
PS: the spoon/stopper are not old but that is not important, they could have been added recently.

Dear Giovanni,

I really appreciate your frank sharing of your experience in identifying snuff bottles. But, I am still inclined to think my Yangzhou bottle here is an antique object. I appreciate that you've shared pics of your samples for comparison, but I'm afraid I'm not really convinced by the finding of it. You may be right that the carving on mine is not exceptional by the general standard of glass overlay snuff bottles. However, I do think it is consistent with other proven Yangzhou glass overlay bottles, mild and subtle, which is typical of such school according to my observation. It isn't as bold and clear as other types glass overlay bottles. In that sense, I think mine isn't really similar to your samples. The execution of the carving on the brown overlay bottle you showed is too detailed and prominent to be Yangzhou (so as in the multi-colored sample of yours), well nice but I personally opine that the maker has kinda overcooked it. Not to comment about the tao tie and the and the slightly protrude surface of the bottle. What I'd like to say is they aren't ideal basis for comparison in this case.

Just exchanging my views... ;)

Warm regards,
Samson

Dear Samson,
you have the bottle in your hands and you are in the best position for judging it, although you did not answer about the signs of age, if you see them or not. The bottles that I show are not mine, just taken from ebay for showing what I meant. Not meant to show how an overlay Yangzhou bottle should look. I was just talking about finishing, quality etc. What do you mean by "The execution of the carving on the brown overlay bottle you showed is too detailed and prominent to be Yangzhou"? Do you mean that the relief of the carving is too high? If so, I don't agree, and you can clearly see in the direct comparison here below that the relief of that bottle and that of your one are the same. Look at the two tao tie masks. It is true that the carving in general looks higher, but that is just because of what I wanted to show you, the quality of the carving. Smoothest and better polished carving gives deepness to the scene.
Anyway, that's my point of view.
Changing the matter, I will be very surprised if the Auction house will tell you the provenance. Unless previously stated in the description, as a merit of the bottle if it belongs from a famous collection, here they refuse to give such information.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

Happy New Year!

Well, to explain myself better, what I'm trying to say is that the way the subjects have been depicted in the brown ones are over detailed and too "rich" in my opinion. After all Giovanni, I think sometimes it's a matter of opinion, we may have different views towards the same subject matter. That makes sense for the discussion... ;)

Regarding provenance, I see what you mean, if it had a famous provenance that would give merit to it when it comes to selling it, it would have been stated at the time of sale. Well I don't know then, I decide to have an ask and see what kind of result I might get.

Best wishes for the new year,
Samson

Dear Samson,
happy New Year to you too and everybody here!!
I take the opportunity to show my only Yangzhou bottle, I don't remember if I ahve already shown it here on the Forum.
Kind regards
Giovanni

I've been following this discussion, and wanted to point out a few things about Samson's bottle that made me believe it is genuine.

The first is the firing grit that you can see in the transparent colors. I see this grit in the blue and pink in almost every Yangzhou bottle I've seen. I'm not sure if it's presence is due to impurities in the glass or the firing process, and would really like to see more discussion about it.

The other is the milkiness of the glass. The white of the glass in the ebay example is very obviously more opaque and bright white and doesn't have the slight translucent milky quality of the genuine article.

And then there is the color of the overlays. All of the overlay colors in the ebay example seem really off.

Just my observations, and I may be wrong, but wanted to put these things out there for further discussion.

And by the way, what do you think of this one just listed on ebay for 17,999?! haha
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-Antique-Chinese-Peking-Glass-Snuff-Bottle-RARE-Five-Colors-Coral-Jade-Pearl-/191595724449?hash=item2c9bfebea1:g:Ao0AAOSw7ThUpWnh


 

Dear Giovanni,

Your Yangzhou bottle is lovely. Thanks for sharing it. Well, without going into the details, I reckon that the finishing and overall profile of yours is similar to mine. At least I don't see any major difference. In my opinion, they are both genuine Yangzhou school and may be compared against each other. While those you posted earlier are way off and shouldn't serve as the reference in this case.

I feel happy for you too for having such a decent Yangzhou overlay bottle as well.

Dear Cathy,

I see what you mean, and yes, I too wish to see further discussions on that. But the eBay bottle you showed is again wayyyy off for a genuine Yangzhou. The colors are too vibrant and the motif is too thick. And for its price it's possible to get a fine and genuine Yangzhou bottle in tip-top condition.

Best,
Samson

Dear Cathy and Samson,
I know that my English is not so good, but really I don't know how to let you understand what said and repeated: please read the text! I never say that the bottles that I show was meant as reference for Yangzhou bottle, never. I repeatedly say that they was posted as a way to better explain what I meant talking about finishing, carving, etc. And even more, I said that all them are modern. I really think that I have been clear. So I don't understand why you continue telling me that those are not good references for Yangzhou bottles. Please read again and try to understand. Sorry for the tone of this answer but because of my not perfect English I am quite sensitive to this matter, I am always afraid of being not understood.
Giovanni

Following along with great interest..

Here is a wonderful topic created by Steven with lots of relevant information..  Excellent read !
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1054.0.html

Especially this particular post.. Steven speaks in part to what Giovanni is trying to describe.
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1054.msg8946.html#msg8946

Dear Giovanni,

Me bad, my message may have given you an impression that I've misunderstood your point. Sorry for bringing things little too far. No offence. As we Chinese say, 以和為貴 - harmony is precious.

Back to the discussion. Yes I understood that you're referring to the carvings. I saw the difference between the samples you showed and mine in terms of carvings, as I've pointed out earlier. As far as I'm concerned, under comparison, it's even more obvious that mine is a Yangzhou bottle. What I mean is that the attributes and characteristics of a Yangzhou overlay stand out even more (regardless of which is "higher" in quality).

I didn't mean to say that you brought out those samples as a standard of Yangzhou style, it's just an extra point I minded to raise from my observation of the pictures.

Hope I've made myself clear.

Best wishes,
Samson

Great stuff George! Thanks for sharing! I like the comparisons made there. Would love to know how would Steven analyze mine here.

Here's the Yangzhou of mine that I shared some time ago: http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3059.0.html

Best,
Samson

Dear Samson,
no problem at all, you are welcome.
Dear George, talking about Steven, he is not posting since a while. He must be busy somewhere, hope that everything is fine with him.
Giovanni

Yes indeed.. He is busy and traveling. He hopes to be able to spend more time on the forum soon.

Hi Samson,

Sorry I missed the thread during my off time. To me, the bottle looks right to me altho not the top quality Yangzhou bottle.

1st of all, the colors are right which is key factor for me to judge a old bottle or a new bottle, the new artificial colors made now days are different from the colors from the old days.
2nd the shape and tao tie masks look right, the overall shape are perfect matched with the 19th yangzhou overlay, so are the mask ring, the master rings of the modern bottle tend to be made complicated than the simple style of the old bottle, one example from Giovanni shared the modern overlay has a very typical modern mask ring.
3rd, the black dots from the body is a good sign of 19th bottle, the glass quality from 19th is not as good as the bottles from 18th, we can normally see some black dots here are there, but that matches the 19th date.
The last one is carving, somehow the carving is not the best example of 19th bottle, some of carving is not perfect polished,  and some area is kinda flat looking instead of being looked more 3d dimensional, but we still can be at same spots the technique being used are the old techniques.

So overall I think the bottle is decent 19th Yangzhou bottle. Its just my thought tho.

-Givoanni

Love your Yangzhou bottle, yours seem have better quality on the glass and carving. very nice example. Congratulations!

Steven

Dear Steven,

Thank you for posting your detail analysis on my Yangzhou.

I had the same thought as you regarding the Tao Tie mask rings. And thank you for pointing out that the tiny black dots on the glass are an indicator for 19th century glass. This I've never known in the past. Certainly learning something new and interesting!

I agree that the carving on Giovanni's Yangzhou does look superb and beautiful. No doubt a kind of bottle desired by many! Hopefully someday I can add a Yangzhou like that into my collection!

By the way Steven, I personally feel that the color combination of my bottle is quite rich (which I think is rare as I've never seen such colorful but well balanced color scheme on a Yangzhou before). In that regard I think it's one of a kind. What do you think? Do you reckon this is one of its merits?

Best,
Samson

Dear Steven,
 
     Welcome back. I hope all in the family are well.

     I assume that you were comparing 19th C. to 18th C. glass as an exercise, NOT in context specifically with Yangzhou Seal School. Since Yangzhou bottles date from ca.1820 - 1880.
There are no 18th C. Yangzhou bottles, at least that I know of.
Best,
Joey

Dear Geovanni and Samson,

I read with much interests the discussions between both of you from ' last year ' to this ' new year ' !!
As collectors, we are always caught between the words " old " ( as to antique ) and " beautiful ".
Of course, old pieces are not necessarily beautiful to look at or have excellent craftsmanship. Likewise, there are new works of art that are excellent and beautiful.

I always reminded myself of these three Chinese words when it comes to any object of art :

' 真 ‘ - meaning authentic, real ;
' 精 ' - meaning par excellent, exquisite, outstanding craftsmanship ;
' 美 ’ - meaning beautiful, elegant .

Like Giovanni, when I hold a piece of snuff bottle in my palm, I never exclaimed, " what an old piece ! "
or " what an antique  ! ". It is always, " what a beauty ! " ( in many cases, unfortunately or fortunately,
my wife was not with me !! ). And we know how difficult it is to ascertain if a snuff bottle is an antique
( anyway, early 20th century pieces, bottles of the Republic era, are now antique in 2017, isn't it ? ).

We are always very happy if we come to own a bottle which is old, as to antique, and it is at the same time
very pleasing to our own eyes - especially it is within our budget ! Such a piece is usually taken home secretly
just in case our better half should see it ( and there are times I surface it together with other pieces my wife
already knew ... )

May we continue our journey of enjoying the snuff bottles in 2017 !

Regards,
Inn Bok
 

Inn Bok,

Lovely description of the Chinese evaluation of a work of art! Thank you for sharing!



 

Dear Inn Bok,

      Great to hear from you! And well written and interesting material.
Best,
Joey

Thank you for that post describing the meanings to you Inn Bok.

Funny also is how familiar I am with what Giovanni tells about holding a snuff bottle in hand. I always say the exact same,  "what a beauty", as compared to " what an old piece" or " what an antique ".  Some times I may say, "outstanding" !

I also understand all so well the sneaking in of a bottle and just mixing it in with the others  :D

Dear Inn Bok,

You are very right! 真，精，美 are the very attributes we serious collectors always aspire and hunt for tirelessly! But to me, age is also an important attribute as I have a special sentiment and liking for objects with history, things that have seen thousands of events. To me, collecting and appreciating a piece of antique is like owning and exploring a piece of history. It can tell us a lot. It's a cultivation of some sort. That's why collecting snuff bottles also sparked my interest for Qing history.

Inn Bok, We have something particularly in common here: "Such a piece is usually taken home secretly just in case our better half should see it ( and there are times I surface it together with other pieces my wife already knew ... )" ;)

Best and let's enjoy every treasure in our collection and may we find more to add into it in 2017!

Samson