Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Hello friend,

Some days ago I see this snuff bottle In Spanish web, I think that it’s really beautiful, and I’m interested to buy it; but first I want to know your opinion, and other interest thinks that you can say about this item.

Thanks.

Albert.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi350.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq420%2Falbaferrerx%2F54714647_zpsgrdzsbww.jpg&hash=038e647dad21a62b942a318dfe670e98) (http://s350.photobucket.com/user/albaferrerx/media/54714647_zpsgrdzsbww.jpg.html)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi350.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq420%2Falbaferrerx%2F54714647_30834805_zpsfwat0x1x.jpg&hash=b992dbacbc609357ee219fc3077332be) (http://s350.photobucket.com/user/albaferrerx/media/54714647_30834805_zpsfwat0x1x.jpg.html)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi350.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq420%2Falbaferrerx%2F54714647_30834798_zps5dmov79l.jpg&hash=74bb5ae55f5c37b4a7f83e2dc80b3e19) (http://s350.photobucket.com/user/albaferrerx/media/54714647_30834798_zps5dmov79l.jpg.html)

Hi Albert,

I am an absolute newbie and know nothing! That's my disclaimer! Haha
But I think this is a beautiful bottle!
The schreger lines are so pronounced!
What's on the back?
I will be interested to hear what the guys say - and I have a new ivory bottle from my BBB that I am about to post in another thread so take a look!

Cathy

Beautiful bottle indeed.. Two dragons chasing a flaming pearl.. Looks nicely carved, and guessing fairly modern.. Maybe within the last 30/50 years ... Lets see what others think..

Thank you for sharing it, and good luck if you decide to go for it !

Dear Albert,
 
     I would date this bottle 1950 - 2000, but very crudely carved, and not worth purchasing. Even from this period, there are 'vintage' snuff bottles which are much more pleasing in their carving and finish.
Best,
Joey

Hello Joey,

Thankyou for your opinion;I'm agree with you when you say that it isn't an old snuff bottle; In other hand, when I show the ivory pepper, I'm completly agree whit you, that these item was bad carved, and maybe it was not a snuff bottle.  But, this item, I think that are beautifull carving.

Finally, can someone say where this type of snuff bottles are made? and what is the average price that it cost?

Thanks for all!

Can anyone help me and post this bottle so Albert and other collectors can see the quality of serious bottles?
Thank you,
Joey

SALE 1977 —
THE MERIEM COLLECTION IMPORTANT CHINESE SNUFF BOTTLES, PART II
19 March 2008, New York
Lot 234
Ivory snuff bottle
JAPAN, 1854-1920
$6,000 - $8,000
 $10,625  (sold)
 
 

Hello Joey,

I had seen the bottle that you say in cristies auctions and others, and the quality is much better, but the price is very high for me!! I sure that I never can buy it! It’s more expensive than my own car! ;D

Indeed, the bottle that I show is expensive for me; and I want to know what price you think that is good for it?

Thanks!

Dear Albert,

     If you can get it for 30-50 Euros, that is fair. But why buy it? Put the 50 Euros aside, save till you have a few hundred Euros, and get a better bottle.
Best,
Joey

Hi Joey :

Picture and description as in webpage of The Meriem Collection, lot 234.

(https://pix1.wikialbums.com/136823716022161236787724541532422521172321347897897197/168224977948704918621940147118231537751136768637892/Photos/13114052777220000018149.jpg)


Lot Description

**A RARE AND UNUSUAL CARVED IVORY SNUFF BOTTLE
JAPAN, 1854-1920
Of sectional construction, with wide mouth, convex lip and recessed flat foot surrounded by a footrim, the body carved and painted with a continuous scene of fishermen in a landscape, with two figures in a houseboat, with laundry hanging on a long pole, another fisherman in a boat nearby, pulling at his net while a seated male figure plays a flute, three fishermen standing in the shallow water close to shore, bringing in their catch in baskets, a fourth boat moored close to the island, where three figures are seated, drinking and in conversation, a fourth figure nearby holding a fish on a spike, all between a modified leiwen border encircling the base and formalized chrysanthemum petals encircling the shoulder, the details colored in red and green lacquer, matching stopper with chrysanthemum petals
2 49/64 in. (7.0 cm.) high


Provenance

Hugh M. Moss Collection.
Literature

Hong Kong Museum of Art, Snuff Bottles of the Ch'ing Dynasty, 1978, p. 93, no. 140.
Exhibited

Hong Kong Museum of Art, "Snuff Bottles of the Ch'ing Dynasty", 20 October-3 December 1978.
Canadian Craft Museum, Vancouver, 1992.


Pin

Hi Albert,

The ivory bottle from the Meriem Collection is in a totally different league!

The bottle you posted appears to be from the mid-1960s to late 1970s, when a large number of ivory bottles were being produced by small Hong Kong workshops as souvenirs for tourists. Of this period most were indeed crudely carved as Joey says. I find yours to be much better than the average for this group. The carving is not badly done, and some care has been taken to smooth down the flat surfaces between the raised relief work.

The going rate for similar bottles at minor auctions is around USD100-200. I would not pay more.

Tom

Dear Pin,
  
     Thank you for your help.

Dear Albert, Cathy, et al,

     THIS is quality carving on an Ivory bottle. Or on any bottle. Wait till you find one of this quality in a junk shop, or at a booth at an antique fair. There are amazing antique fairs in Italy. I've gone with Giovanni a few times, and found wonderful things. He is very methodical, and finds a lot more (and he lives there, and goes all the time). But he studied first, and then bought, once he was sure he knew what he was doing. Are there such fairs in Catalunya?

    But I have never seen such good stuff at similar level fairs in USA, Canada, Ireland, UK or Israel. AMAZING! Of course, at the Olympia or Grosvenor House or BADA Antique Fairs in London, yes; but at serious prices. But in Italy, at streetside antiques fairs near Milan, near Parma, in La Spezia, etc., many wonderful things; and not expensive - usually  quite a bit under 100 Euros each (a Meiji (ca.1858-1910) Ivory page turner decorated in lacquer and inset semi-precious stones  (coral, jade, garnet, seed pearls) for 60-80 Euros; a Taisho (Japanese Art Deco, ca.1910-1935) carved Cinnabar Lacquer dish on porcelain for serving sweets at the Tea Ceremony, for 40 Euros; a genuine Tuareg incised silver and glass bead necklace, ca. 1920-1940,  around 100 Euros).

    Don't be in such a hurry to buy crap. Crap is always available. Wait and buy quality. And you never know when you will find it.
A friend was waiting for a flight from Manchester, UK, and went to a carboot sale nearby. And found a gold cigarette case from Tiffany's of NYC, with enamelling in mint condition, for UK£ 20 ! Have faith, and don't spend all your funds before you find the good stuff.
Best,
Joey

Dear Tom,
 
    You are right - it is in a different league, but that is the league to aim for.
And it is amazing what one can find. One person buys a great piece, but then it gets into the hands of a person who doesn't value it; and then somehow gets to a person who will appreciate it, and often very cheaply.

Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

You are right, of course. But one does need both patience and luck on one's side....especially luck !!!

Best,
Tom

And time .... And funds to travel .... So let me summarize :

Time , Patience, Luck, and yes, money talks and walks ... We can not and should not deny that ..

Or good eyes and the Internet as some of us here have built our collections with a good combination of the above !

Hello,

thank you all for your help and your tips, at the moment I continuos reading the forum to learn more things about this marvelous bottles, and in the case that some bottles snuff seems interesting to me first I show the pictures.

Thanks!! :)

Dear Pat & Tom,
 
     I have seen the treasures that Steven, George, Charll and the two of you have found online. Shoot, I've bought a bunch of them!  ;D
And that's great. But we have 'newbies' who are paying good money for bottles which are, frankly, not worth buying. I believe there are beauties out there waiting for those who know what they are doing. But if they've spent all their funds on mediocre examples and modern examples, they won't have the funds to grab the beauties when they surface. And I have faith they will surface.
Best,
Joey

     

Joey

My post was actually intended to supplement and build on yours. I agree with your points completely. I just wanted to reinforce it by the traveling and visiting part to see and hold other bottles as well as the funds required to buy decent collection items. My cabinets and drawers are still full of learning find items that I either had no time to dispose of yet or too afraid to show.  Haha ... I am being very serious ..

Dear Pat,
 
     After rereading it a number of times, I got that you were agreeing with me, and adding extra 'clues' on how to find good and even great quality examples. BUT my worry is, that if they spend all their money on rubbish (a more delicate term in place of 'crap', which I've been using too much! ;D), they will either be disgusted and stop, or not have the funds to buy the quality examples.

    I have a hang-up about damage. I just received a bottle I bought from YF Yang  months ago, but which went on its own travels, and is now safely in my hands. It is an 18th C. apple green Jadeite bottle, a cylindrical bulbous bottle with flared neck, and both mouth and foot are gently indented. It is totally plain. The problem for me is, it has a tiny bruise in the outer rim of the neck, and it bothers me every time I see it. I'm telling myself that it is in memory of the destruction of our Holy Temple in Jerusalem, almost 2000 years ago.

   You, not being bothered by damage, are able to get cheaply, superb bottles I would not touch. Like the Quartz, and the Zhou Leyuan I saw at your home, and others. And in my opinion, you are possibly a better collector than I, since you look ONLY at the beauty, and not at the market value. I also want to know that my knowledge has some monetary profit, as well as increasing the general body of knowledge.

     Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Quality is far too expensive and trends are unpredictable.

I was comparing glass bottle pricing in the 70s to now. The really good ones did not increase that much.
Whilst Jade is a total different story. Few hundred dollar good Jade bottles in the 70s selling for tens of thousands is quite common now.

Also the internet is teaching a lot of people to be wiser very fast. Even auction house are reducing their quantity and improving their quality to keep their customers. Just look at Bonhams HK's Chinese sale for example.
 
Cheers,
YT

Dear YT,

    I'm sorry, but fine glass bottles I could have acquired for a few hundred US$ now can cost over US$5,000 !
And an overlay I paid US$1200 for in 1988, and traded in 1995 for 2 Ding Erzhongs in glass, a Zhou Leyuan in quartz, and a Daoguang Imperial mark and period  B & W porcelain landscape bottle (total value then, US$65,000) was sold in the Bloch sale for close to US$100,000.

   If you want an area where prices have NOT gone way up, collect ancient glass from the Eastern Mediterranean.  ::) ;D
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

That is exactly my point. Good glass going up by about 10 times or more. The YuZhi is an exception where you have admitted it was a very rare occasion.

As for Good Jade, majority of them has gone up 100 times which is a more worthy investment than glass due to the Chinese love for Jade.

My comparisons are based on quite a number of Bloch bottles against their purchase price in the 70s.

Cheers,
YT

Hello,

You are saying, that the snuff bottles in the last 30 years increase their price; and I'm agrre with this, indeed I read that it succes whit all chinese antiquies, isn't it?

But you know what is the main reason to explain it?


Thanks.

Albert

As Chinese society is becoming more affluent they are starting to buy back their antiques. In addition snuff bottles are easy to display and store in collection type numbers whereas other Chinese antiques like paintings and porcelain are not ...

Just my experience from living in China before and talking with other collectors...

Dear Albert,

Overall I agree with Pat's comment. And especially the enamels and hardstones(Jade, Agates...) are the favorites for Chinese market.

One same joke that I have heard from the top few collectors is that snuff bottle is easily carried around in the hundreds. During turbulent times, they can easily escape with the bottles.

My first private viewing was when a dear dear friend brought 60 bottles in 10 small pouches traveling to a few countries to show potential bidders. These were the top bottles of a 180 bottle auction sale and yet the traveling was relatively easy and safe.
No other Chinese sale can an auctioneer bring 60 lots around without damaging them.

Cheers,
YT

So one could say: "The desirability lies in the mobility"...    ;)

and when houses get smaller .... the collectables need to go down in size accordingly too.... ;D ;D ;D

Pin

Or buy a bigger house....   ::) ;D
Joey