Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Ok, so I am still embarrassed about my last post but thought what the heck, it can't be any worse if I post new bottles that came from my BBB today. Trying to keep my chin up here!
So you can see what I was going for on these purchases. To me they look authentic. But as we have all established by now I have no clue what I'm doing!

As a side note the one of the left was so dirty that I just had to take an old toothbrush to it! It still isn't coming clean but I stopped and thought I would ask about whether or not it's ok to clean the bottles before getting down to the nitty gritty - plus wanted to see if it was even worth my time.

I have only the tiniest glimmer of hope on these, even though to me they have all the markings of maybe being the Ku Yueh Hsuan that Lilla Perry talks about.

Please don't spare me - I need the truth!

Cathy,

These are tough to judge and it took me a longtime to understand the difference between authentic old bottles, bottles painted by artists such as Ye Bengqi or his pupil Wang Xisan in the last half of the 20th century, and new bottles.

New bottles tend to have a brighter color paleltte, thicker enamel layering, thicker walled glass (i.e., more heavy), and a highly raised blue Qianlong mark on the base.  Your bottles show the distinctive indicators of newly produced bottles, and all are post 2000 in my opinion. 

Here is a link to what appears to be an authentic Guyue Xuan type bottle: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23744/lot/6077/?category=grid&length=144&page=1

There are enough Guyue Xuan type bottles within action catalogs and on the web to were you can see a number of good legitimate examples that can be compare side-by-side to newer production bottles illustrated on eBay or Liveauctioneers. Once this study time is put in with these comparison images it will become more clear on what is new and what may be an authentic old bottle.

Charll

Thanks Charll,

I have tried to remove the dirt from the left one. What do they do, grind the dirt in?

Cathy,

When I see the dirt as you describe it, I'll stir away from the bottle.  I actually speculate that they use a tea stain or some other form of staining on these newer bottles to give them the appearance of age.  A dirty appearance is very rarely a good thing.

When inspecting bottles you want to look abraded surfaces, scratches, and/or rubbed areas from use and wear from being pulled in-and-out of a sleeve or fabric purse. 

Charll 

Charll really hit it on the nail.. I can confirm for both you and Charll that these are not old.. Although I do believe these are coming from the currently ran Guyue Xuan factory..

On the other hand, the first bottle, although I believe it just a bit less modern is quite unique in the combination of colors within the motif.. I kind of like it...  So that one aside, am glad you did not have high expectations  ;)

Cathy :

My suggestion is to choose one or 2 types of material that you really like and do a extensive study of them and start buying from there. And maybe for a start, if you want to buy a bottle, buy a book instead. Once you are quite certain that you have good knowledge of those 1-2 area, then you move to the next. Snuff bottles come in too many different material (And I personally think that porcelain, enamel  and jade are the most difficult area). If you try to collect everything and anything at one goal..... its like boiling the ocean of Chinese culture. It definitely going to be very difficult.

Pin

Thanks Pin, Charll, and George for the advice.
I am not going to buy anymore for quite some time!

I could not agree more Pin.. And I am not just saying this towards you Cathy.  These are the same suggestions I tell all who are new to collecting these little gems, and I tell what Pin has said as a result of my own learning curve from when I first started, right up to and including this very day.  As Pin pointed out, enamels, and porcelains in general are among the most difficult. I have a "long way" to go before I have even the basics down. I am trying, but having difficulties..  I feel as though concentrating on inside painted as a first choice followed by gemstone bottles as the two main mediums resulted in not letting me become  overwhelmed trying to learn all the different mediums as a new collector.. I am somewhat comfortable with those two, and am slowly trying to get a handle on the porcelain medium.. Like Pin says, books, books, and more books.. Enjoy a couple of mediums.. If we become overwhelmed it can take some of the fun out of collecting..  I am way ok with having fun at an easy pace with inside painted, and expect it will be years before I can make any claims to really understanding even a couple of other..

Any hooo.... Well said Pin !

Hi Cathy,

Don't be discouraged (and never be embarrassed - we've all been there!). Some of the better enamel painters are beginning to put their own names on the bases instead of these phony reign marks. I have a few similar to your centre bottle, knowingly bought as modern, simply because I liked them, thought the painting well executed, the composition well balanced, and also because I could never afford the genuine article.

But take note of the advice given by the others here. And use your purchases as a learning experience.  ;)

Tom

On a side note..

Tom, do you know any additional information about students that I presume are painting under You Fenghua ( who is the only modern enameller I know of so far signing ) that might be signing their names ?  Is there a website or some other source to view works by students signing their bottles?

I've been trying to identify marks on some of the bottles I've had in my collection for some time and saw that one I bought more recently shares the same mark found on two other bottles.
As far as I have found out the mark on these bottles is a Guyuexuan mark which seems to be linked to the somewhat elusive Ku Yueh Hsuan mark, hence the post here.
The two milk glass bottles are the early purchases, the enamelled clear bottle is the recent one. None were expensive, I think the most paid was for the centre bottle which cost around £20 from a standard general antique shop.
The clear bottle is made of crystal with the inside ground out as an IP bottle would be. The round fish bottle is similar to ones I have seen offered on ebay from China although I bought mine around 20 years ago. The large bottle with the Tiger pictures has been signed and sealed by the artist and is clearly of a better quality than the others and was bought about 20 years ago as well.
Any comments, good, bad or indifferent ?
Regards to you all, Adrian.

Hi Adrian..

Yes, Guyuexuan has been around for some time. They are still producing modern wares including vases.

Sadly, these are pretty new..

Dear George,

     The TERM 'Guyuexuan' has been around since the early 18th C.  It referred to a studio in the Yuanmingyuan (the Summer Palace near Beijing), which produced enamelled wares for the Yongzheng, Qianlong, and possibly Jiaqing Emperors. It has been translated as "Old Moon Pavilion" or "Ancient Moon Pavilion".
The mark was copied by private artisans during the 19th & 20th centuries, and seemingly now, into the 21st.
     
Who is  the 'They' you referred to below?  ::) ???  ;D

Best,
Joey

Yes, of course I know Guyuexuan...

I should have said the name is being applied today via Chinese factory.  This is not the link I was looking for because the factory also make vases.
https://lukeh.fm.alibaba.com/product/56368-12358/Guyuexuan.html

Dear George,

     Those are HORRIBLE! At least Cathy's middle bottle was quite pleasing.
Best,
Joey

Wish I could find the correct link for the factory.. The bottles are just a bit nicer, and I recall the vases were not so bad either..

Hi George,

Nothing to be sad about in them being newer bottles as I had no preconceptions of them being of any particular age and the prices I paid make it easier to gain pleasure from them than had I been lead to believe they were something they weren't and so may have overpaid for them.

What was nice about the two milk glass bottles was that they were bought from either collectable fairs or shops. I handled them before I bought them and handling them was an important part of deciding if I wanted to buy them. Finding snuff bottles then meant a trip out, sometimes a day out, with my girlfriend, visiting a new town and finding a nice pub to eat in.

Whilst the internet, ebay and online auctions are a boon for snuff bottle collectors with a choice of thousands of different bottles available at the click of a button, the sad thing is I've bought about 70 bottles over the past year since I rekindled my interest in them but I never handled a single one before buying it.

Regards,

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

your idea of a nice day out sounds similar to mine and the GF. Agree as well handling bottles makes a big difference, regarding materials etc and especially to be able to tell if the bottle is well hollowed.... I like your bottles. Not sure how much a genuine bottle of this type would cost? I think super expensive...

Luke

Hi Luke,

Sadly there are ever fewer antique dealers about where I live. I visit the few local ones there are occasionally but have found nothing to tempt me.

I think the ever increasing number of online bids coming in at auctions which seem to be more private buyers is pricing a number of dealers out meaning it's harder for them to pick up stock at reasonable prices. Certainly there are more dealers with virtual shops online now, far cheaper than leasing an actual shop.

I'm still happy trying to source bottles at reasonable prices, although I have been spending more lately on some. I seem to have deep pockets and short arms most of the time but the most important thing to me is the pleasure I get from a bottle and the price I pay has a bearing on that.

Regards,

Adrian.

Hi Adrian,

You hit the nail on the head. When I first started collecting in the 70s the fun lay in hunting around small shops and stalls at antique fairs (most of which didn't know what a snuff bottle was, having one or two among the general bric-a-brac). I look back on those years with a certain amount of nostalgia. With a few exceptions most of the bottles I acquired back then are nothing to write home about, but each one has a story behind it. And that's a large part of what collecting is all about.

Nowadays with online bidding, it's all become a bit clinical.

All best,
Tom

Tom,

I share and agree with your sentiments!
My snuff bottles collecting has been a journey,
an experience for all my senses ! The journey
sustains, even today, my deep admiration of
the Chinese works of art expressed through
the miniature forms of those bottles in my
collections.

Inn Bok