Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Gem, Stone, Rock and Fossil => Topic started by: cshapiro on July 07, 2016, 07:51:38 pm



Title: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: cshapiro on July 07, 2016, 07:51:38 pm
Another bottle from this collection (goes with the strawberry one)!
This was sold to me as jade, but I don't think I really know what jade looks like. I think I know what prehnite, and chalcedony, and all the other pale green stones look like that are sold as jade.
This one is a very, very rich green. The pictures don't do it justice. It almost has an opalescence to the surface.
I read the previous posts about how a jade should show some wear, and this one looks like it's been handled alot!
So am just looking for an opinion on the bottle, and again would ask if you think it might be jade, if you think it would be worthy of a GIA trip.

thanks for watching my channel - two more episodes to come!

 


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: Wattana on July 07, 2016, 09:06:24 pm
This looks to me like nephrite jade, and quite modern. In old China it was quite rare and hence highly sought after, but there are several commercial sources for this colour of jade nowadays - New Zealand, Canada, Siberia, and Central America to name but a few.


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 07, 2016, 09:14:08 pm
Thanks Tom!


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle. Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 07, 2016, 09:34:52 pm
Dear Cathy,

 Yes, I would agree with Tom.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: George on July 08, 2016, 12:04:34 am
I think the spoon is much nicer and probably worth more than the bottle... At least you have a nice stopper/spoon for a future bottle if you like..


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 08, 2016, 12:30:46 am
Thanks George - I have not given the tops enough consideration thus far, and it is a lovely one!


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle. Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 08, 2016, 04:02:23 am
Dear Cathy,

      That is NOT "Emerald Green Jade".
That description is usually used for Jadeite. This is Nephrite. Nephrite from where, I'm not sure.
Age, I think modern.
One needs to be careful not to give false titles.
If I didn't know what to put, I might write, "Green Stone Bottle. Jade?"
Or, if I did know it was Jade, but was unsure which type (Nephrite, Jadeite, Chloromelonite):
"Green Jade Bottle. Nephrite or Jadeite?"
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: YT on July 08, 2016, 04:11:36 am
Dear Cathy,

I thought this was a Green Serpentine. GIA charges are very reasonable, I think it is worth checking it out.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: George on July 08, 2016, 04:33:03 am
Dear Cathy,

I thought this was a Green Serpentine.

That is what I believe as well...


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: Wattana on July 08, 2016, 04:55:59 am
Cathy,

It might be serpentine, as suggested. But if so, there is a very simple test you can do without sending it to the GIA.

Serpentine is a much softer stone than nephrite jade. The point of a steel knife blade will easily scratch serpentine.

Note! Contrary to what you may read, nephrite jade can also scratch if you use a high carbon steel point and press really hard. But it's not nearly so easy to leave a scratch mark on nephrite as on serpentine.

Choose the location carefully, so that the mark is discreet!   


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle. Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 08, 2016, 05:59:26 am
Or even better, almost unnoticeable!  ;D
Joey


Cathy,

It might be serpentine, as suggested. But if so, there is a very simple test you can do without sending it to the GIA.

Serpentine is a much softer stone than nephrite jade. The point of a steel knife blade will easily scratch serpentine.

Note! Contrary to what you may read, nephrite jade can also scratch if you use a high carbon steel point and press really hard. But it's not nearly so easy to leave a scratch mark on nephrite as on serpentine.

Choose the location carefully, so that the mark is discreet!   


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: guest551 on July 08, 2016, 06:15:59 am
Hello Cathy,

I too think it is nephrite rather than serpentine.

However, a simple test to establish this is to carry out a specific gravity test on it.  If nephrite it will record as between 2.90 to 3.02, whereas serpentine will read between 2.40 and 2.80.

The test is easy to carry out, just google specific gravity and it will tell you how to do it.

Kind regards,

Paul


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 08, 2016, 11:03:02 am
Thanks for the advice! This weekend I will try to figure out how to do a specific gravity test on it. I hesitate to take a knife to it. Sorry for my ignorance but what difference will it make whether it's nephrite or serpentine? Will that help date the bottle?


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 08, 2016, 05:09:11 pm
Paul - thanks for the advice. I looked it up and it was easy to do. The specific gravity is between 2.92 and 3.15 so it looks like you were right!
So I guess that means its not an old bottle


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle. Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 08, 2016, 10:43:56 pm
Dear Cathy,

      The material does not indicate its age. The style of the bottle, the foot, the neck, the hollowing, etc., these all tend to make us assume it is modern.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Paul - thanks for the advice. I looked it up and it was easy to do. The specific gravity is between 2.92 and 3.15 so it looks like you were right!
So I guess that means its not an old bottle


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: guest551 on July 09, 2016, 05:51:33 am
Dear Cathy,

It is essential to try and establish what material the snuff is made from because not only will it identify the snuff in question, it will help you in knowing Nephrite from other stones in future purchases. I know one thing, if I had a snuff that possibly could be jade, old or modern, I couldn't sleep until I had done the basic tests to establish its possible authenticity.

In respect to your specific gravity test, somewhere you are doing it wrong. You said it was between 2.92 and 3.15, this is not an accurate test. Your test should read an exact reading such as 2.92, or any other number. The ranges I quoted, 2.90 to 3.02 were the normal readings for Nephrite because the stone varies in its ingredients, you cannot have a between number.

Suggest you read Google advice again and re-test.

Kind regards,

Paul



Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle. Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 09, 2016, 06:12:14 am
It's funny. I usually just know if it is Nephrite, Jadeite, etc.
I received a snuff dish as a gift from Y.F. my last visit to Honolulu, and I was not sure it was Jade.
So I "Asked A Friend"! Like on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire". ;D ::)
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: guest551 on July 09, 2016, 06:47:53 am
Hello Joey,

With your beautiful Jade snuffs you should know, but if ever you are not sure whether a snuff is Jadeite or Nephrite, suggest you choose 50 - 50.  :)

Kind regards,

Shabbat Shalom,

Paul


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 09, 2016, 10:35:12 am
Hi Paul,

The bottle weighed 41 grams. When I submerged it the first time, I got a reading of 14 grams.
I did the math to get specific gravity of 2.92
But then I worried that I may not have gotten all the air out of the bottle so weighed again and this time it weighed 13 grams. That's why I gave the range.
I am working with a kitchen scale, small plastic cup full of water and the only way I could hold onto it with the paper clip was to hook it through the neck and submerge it upside down.
;)


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 09, 2016, 10:55:26 am
I am going to weigh it again today!
But actually it doesn't feel like jade to me. It has a slight iridescence to the surface that is unlike anything I've ever seen. This one for sure needs to go to the GIA for a final determination.


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 09, 2016, 12:30:28 pm
Ok so I fashioned a string around it to use instead of the paperclip and I submerged it and shook it around a good bit to get all the air bubbles out and got another reading of 14  - putting it at 2.92 specific gravity. So I'm pretty such this is spinach jade - or nephrite.

I read about doing specific gravity tests in Lilla Perry's book, but didn't see the real benefit until now thanks to you guys. I anticipate using this much more in the future!


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: guest551 on July 10, 2016, 08:19:44 am
Hello Cathy,

The only suggestion I can make is to acquire a 2 decimal point set of pocket scales, these are cheap on ebay. I've tried  with a single point set and they were not accurate enough.

Kind regards,

Paul


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: Wattana on July 10, 2016, 09:47:20 pm
Cathy,

If the specific gravity range for serpentine is 2.40 to 2.80 and you are consistently getting readings of over 2.90, then I'd agree that it pretty much rules out serpentine.

Of course, if you want to be really punctilious you should send it off to the GIA for a definitive analysis. It could turn out to be a stone we hadn't even considered.  


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 10, 2016, 10:06:19 pm
Hi Paul and Wattana,

In reading today I came across another type of jadeite called Chloromelanite (also known as Maw sit sit), and it looks just like that. I also read it has a higher specific gravity reading, so I really think this mystery is solved!




Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: cshapiro on July 10, 2016, 10:11:00 pm
sorry I misspoke - maw sit sit is another mineral - Chloromelanite is the stone I am referring to!


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: Wattana on July 10, 2016, 10:53:57 pm
Hi Cathy,

Maw-sit-sit is a type of jadeite specific to a region of Upper Burma (or Myanmar), so named for the nearby town of that name. It was only "discovered" to be unique to that region in the late 20th century. But for many years snuff bottle collectors have been referring to a very similar looking type of jade (deep, dark green with near-black inclusions) as Chloromelanite.

I understand that the chemical composition of both is almost identical to regular jadeite. If that is so, the specific gravity should also be almost identical. The slightly higher S.P. reading would be due to higher amounts of trace elements such as chromium within the matrix.

Tom


Title: Re: Emerald Green Jade Bottle
Post by: YT on July 11, 2016, 02:38:05 am
Dear Cathy,

I thought this was a Green Serpentine. GIA charges are very reasonable, I think it is worth checking it out.

Cheers,
YT

Dear Cathy,

I have attached a Snuff Bottle presumably in Bowenite/Green Serpentine material sculpted like a bat. This has been tested with Specified Gravity at 2.94.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowenite
Bowenite is an especially hard serpentine (5.5) of a light to dark apple green colour, often mottled with cloudy white patches and darker veining. Deposits in China are in the SuZhou region, which accounts for it's also being known as SuZhou Jade.

I still think it is a nice idea to check with GIA.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle. Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 11, 2016, 04:35:54 pm
Dear Cathy,

    As the starter of the thread, you can change the title of the thread.
It is patently NOT 'Emerald Green Jade'.
Please do me a favour and change it to "Green Stone Bottle. Jade?"
Thank you,
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: cshapiro on July 11, 2016, 05:38:07 pm
YT - that is a beautiful bottle!

Joey - I did not realize I could change the title - so just did.

;)


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 11, 2016, 07:10:32 pm
Dear Cathy,

      Thank you. It took me almost a year till I discovered it. So you are faster than me!  ;D

And yes, YT's Spinach Green Jade Bat bottle is a real beauty.
I think it is ca.1780-1830 and possibly Imperial Palace Workshops.

Best,
Joey

YT - that is a beautiful bottle!

Joey - I did not realize I could change the title - so just did.

;)


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: Wattana on July 11, 2016, 09:01:36 pm

YT's Spinach Green Jade Bat bottle is a real beauty.
I think it is ca.1780-1830 and possibly Imperial Palace Workshops.


Dear Joey,

I thought YT was saying in his post that the illustrated green bat bottle is bowenite, not jade.

Best,
Tom


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: YT on July 12, 2016, 12:05:03 am
Dear Cathy,

Thank you.

Dear Joey,

Thank you for the description. I presume this bottle to be Bowenite as the feel is different from my other Spinach Jade. Feels slightly smoother and shows slight translucency.
Will show you when you are here  ;)

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 12, 2016, 06:54:44 am
Dear Tom,

     Me bad!  :D ::)   You are 100% correct.

   I was looking at the picture and not reading the words, and seemed to remember a Spinach Green Jade
Bat bottle, and put two and two together and got five!  ;)

Still, a superb bottle. Thank you YT. I look forward to holding it.

Best,
Joey


YT's Spinach Green Jade Bat bottle is a real beauty.
I think it is ca.1780-1830 and possibly Imperial Palace Workshops.


Dear Joey,

I thought YT was saying in his post that the illustrated green bat bottle is bowenite, not jade.

Best,
Tom


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: guest551 on July 12, 2016, 07:32:17 am
Dear YT,

Please excuse me for doubting you, I only want to learn.

You said you presumed you nice snuff was in Bowenite/Green Serpentine and it had an SG of 2.94.

Can you please explain why you think it is not Nephrite, because it looks right for Nephrite to my uneducated eyes.

Unfortunately I am away in the next hour and wont be back for about a week, so please excuse my lack of response to any reply you may give.

Kind regards,

Paul


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 12, 2016, 08:58:16 pm
Dear Paul, YT, Tom, et al,

    I also thought it was nephrite jade, spinach green to be precise, from the photo.
I'm not really familiar with 'Bowenite', to be totally honest. :-[
Best,
Joey

 


Dear YT,

Please excuse me for doubting you, I only want to learn.

You said you presumed you nice snuff was in Bowenite/Green Serpentine and it had an SG of 2.94.

Can you please explain why you think it is not Nephrite, because it looks right for Nephrite to my uneducated eyes.

Unfortunately I am away in the next hour and wont be back for about a week, so please excuse my lack of response to any reply you may give.

Kind regards,

Paul


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: George on July 12, 2016, 09:08:36 pm


I'm not really familiar with 'Bowenite', to be totally honest. :-[


 



It is a mineral that they dye quite often.. I see it with a lot of turquoise.. It is not actually turquoise, but dyed bowenite. 


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: YT on July 12, 2016, 11:08:41 pm
Dear Joey and Paul,

I am just assuming it is Bowenite as it does not look like the Spinach Jade that I have. As for the hardness, it is definitely harder than my other serpentine bottles.

Even Christies describe this bottle as Zoisite but the SG is not 3.10-3.36.

Cheers,
YT  ???


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: George on July 12, 2016, 11:26:22 pm


Even Christies describe this bottle as Zoisite but the SG is not 3.10-3.36.

Cheers,
YT  ???

That is pretty bad for Christies to believe this Zoisite !


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 13, 2016, 04:07:53 am
I agree - I had a Ruby Zoisite bottle I bought from YF Yang between 1974 and 1977, made from a stone brought back to the PRC by Chinese workers on the Tanzania-Zambia Railroad between 1970 and 1975.
So chances are it was barely finished when I bought it. ;D
Wow! First owner. Not really a thing to be proud of, if you collect antiques. ::) ;D
Best,
Joey





Even Christies describe this bottle as Zoisite but the SG is not 3.10-3.36.

Cheers,
YT  ???

That is pretty bad for Christies to believe this Zoisite !


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: YT on July 13, 2016, 07:19:28 am
I agree - I had a Ruby Zoisite bottle I bought from YF Yang between 1974 and 1977, made from a stone brought back to the PRC by Chinese workers on the Tanzania-Zambia Railroad between 1970 and 1975.
So chances are it was barely finished when I bought it. ;D
Wow! First owner. Not really a thing to be proud of, if you collect antiques. ::) ;D
Best,
Joey


Unless you are 160, then you can claim to have a 19th Zoisite bought first hand
 ;D


Title: Re: Green Stone Bottle -Jade?
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 13, 2016, 08:52:52 am
Dear YT,

     I'd like a time machine, to go back to 1915 to 1935, and buy up all the Imperial treasures on offer! And sleep on a kang in a hutong near the Forbidden City...
Best,
Joey


I agree - I had a Ruby Zoisite bottle I bought from YF Yang between 1974 and 1977, made from a stone brought back to the PRC by Chinese workers on the Tanzania-Zambia Railroad between 1970 and 1975.
So chances are it was barely finished when I bought it. ;D
Wow! First owner. Not really a thing to be proud of, if you collect antiques. ::) ;D
Best,
Joey


Unless you are 160, then you can claim to have a 19th C. Zoisite bought first hand
 ;D