Title: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Max on July 14, 2011, 05:33:53 am Hello, my name is Max and I am starting off in collecting Japanese antiques but I do pick up a few Chinese items
when buying. I have a glass painted snuff bottle and I am interested in the artist and age, can anyone help me to identify this bottle?It is quite large as well and has ground base and rim with ivory spoon and washer. (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi191.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz73%2Fgizzgadge%2Febay%2Fsnuff017-1.jpg&hash=6fcd66afa528d07802bb4b7270f1509f) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi191.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz73%2Fgizzgadge%2Febay%2Fsnuff013-1.jpg&hash=4501abcef9cf54d3b6abe0e63e04791f) Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on July 14, 2011, 05:42:26 am Max
This is Yong Shoutian style but I cant read the signature well. He was active from about 1910-mid 20s, and the fighting scenes were his favorite style and trademark so to speak. 80pct plus of bottles I have ever seen with his name on it are of this type and subject, and at the time not so many artists favored this subject. He also seems to have favored large style bottles. This is my best educated guess. One of our members here (Bill Patrick) at www.snuffbottlecollector.com has several of his style bottles, while I have 2 or 3 only. George, our moderator, also likes this style and artist. Take care! Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: George on July 14, 2011, 08:07:53 am Hi Max and welcome to the forum .. !
Just to share with you.. Here are a couple of links to the only couple of Yong Shou T'ien bottles that I have so far. Warrior bottle one (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,103.0.html) Warrior bottle two (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,113.0.html) Here is a direct link for the artist (http://snuffbottlecollector.com/yong_shou_tien/yong_shou_tien_00.htm) within Bill Site. When I first came upon these, thought they were a bit rare. Not so sure now.. Over the past few months I have actually seen a fair number of these bottles show up for auction. Some signed and some unsigned. Bill mentions in his site how this simplified character style (http://snuffbottlecollector.com/yong_shou_tien/yst_1b.htm) on your bottle, as well as mine, did not become widely used until after the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949. Since Yong Shou T'ian stopped painting in 1926 it brings into question if these bottles were even painted by Yong Shou T'ian and not other artists who signed his name. Nice bottle Max ! Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Max on July 14, 2011, 04:29:16 pm thank you, that was a great help..the second link shows the signature which is on my bottle. I am really pleased to have it identified. I feel a bit lowly as you are all so knowledgable here and you have some amazing bottles. I am only recently getting into buying Chinese and Japanese items of interest, from antique Kimonos to tiny porcelain vases.
What a huge and fascinating world! I bought a 1780 bronze water dropper today and am dleighted with it.I would be glad to show you but its not a snuff bottle so it might not be of interest. I have a snuff bottle that I bought in an auction " box of bits" tried to research its composition and it appears to be either horn or rhino horn, I dont know how to tell the difference, it is fairly fibrous and the light shows through the thinner parts. Its not amber I know that much as I dabble in dealing in jewellery. Would I show it to you here or on another part? its not a painted bottle.Sorry, I have run away here...I only meant to thank you all for your help but I do talk too much! Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: George on July 14, 2011, 05:05:02 pm Max,
You can share that horn type bottle within the "All Other Snuff Bottles and Containers" (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/board,12.0.html) part of the forum. Would love to see it ! Also.. Being a collecter of Chinese anitiques, would like to ask if you have some expertise with porcelain items.. It is one area we are lacking some expertise here within the forum. I am always watching porcelain type snuff bottles that are up for auction, but I just do not have the knowledt to tell a true antique from a modern reproduction. Because of that, I have yet to bid or purchase even one bottle yet. I have read quite a bit off of Gotheborg's site. Lot's of good info, but still not confident enough to purchase porcelain yet. Could use some help/expertise from time to time.. ! ;) Look forward to seeing your horn container. I posted one horn container (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,244.0.html) in that area of the forum.. They are an art form all their own... :) Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 14, 2011, 08:14:32 pm Hi Max
Good news and bad news : The artist name is indeed Yong Shou Tian. But the " Shou" is in simplified form , which was not invented until after 1950 Maybe Pat can give a second opinion Cheers Peter Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / STOP PRESS Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 14, 2011, 08:31:39 pm Hi Max
I take back my last comment ! Sorry !! I just examined the first Yong Shou Tian bottle on Bill's site, which is taken from CIPMA ( Wang Xisan editor) and so certianly genuine. The "shou" character is written just like the "shou" on your bottle in simplified / abbreviated form Maybe some simplified characters used after 1950 were based on commonly accepted abbreviations from the past, so I was wrong to state categorically that ALL simplified characters were only invented after 1950 As to whether the handwriting is the same, you can judge for yourself. Follow the link below to Bill's site ( you can also navigate to Bill's site from the sidebar on this forum) and then enlarge the pic ( which is in fact a scan I made from CIPMA which I sent to Bill) . But then also scroll on to the right, and see a lot more Yong Shou Tian bottles from various sources of Bill , and you will even see a pic which assembles several "signatures" of Yong Shou Tian, and Bill says he wonders if they are all by THE Yong Shou Tian , or whether some are later copies ( but then, why would a later copy artist copy the styel but be so silly as to use the wrong character style ? That makes no sense) I don't collect Middle period bottles so I cannot comment on whether the style is correct for this artist. Cheers Peter Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: richy88 on July 14, 2011, 11:49:30 pm Hi Max & All
Although the PRC government have simplified the Chinese characters in 1950 to improve literacy of the masses, such simplified Chinese characters do exist for a long time. It is quite common in Chinese calligraphy to write certain characters in various styles. Therefore, the character in the signature is acceptable as Shou (寿) is a very frequent used character in Chinese paintings and calligraphies just like the other character Fu (福). If you look at one of my bottle painted by Lu Jian Guang, there is a side written with the Shou Character in a hundred variations. http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,131.0.html (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,131.0.html) However, please be aware that with the simplification of the Chinese characters exercise by the Chinese government, there are also new simplified characters being created during that time. For your reference. Richard Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on July 15, 2011, 05:27:42 am The Warring Period fighting style is Young Shou Tian for sure, no doubt in my mind about that, and sure one of the various Yong's listed on Bill's site haha...will the real Yong Shou Tian please stand up? lol
I guess I am lucky to have one of his non-fighting style bottles, similar to the one listed in CIPMA. I guess he was a two track minded kind of guy painting 'fighting' scenes or 'dreams of the red chamber' ;D hm.. ::) sounds like a regular guy to me... haha Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 15, 2011, 05:47:51 am Hi All
Although I don't collect anything pre-1960 ( or , rather, more like pre-1990) I am guessing that there could be a lot of interest soon in the late Middle period which is , I assume, sort of 1910 - 1930* *any input here from others more in the know? Bottles painted in this late Middle period do not seem to be in the main focus of the ICSBS core members, who prefer to collect the classics from the " Main - Middle Period" i.e. late 1800's, so prices are still low ( US$ 3- 4 K range with provenance? ) There are obviously a finite number of genuine bottles in existence from this period therefore any such bottle will eventually appreciate . So this could be a good area to collect, and to build up expertise on what is genuine and what is not ( Just my 10 cents worth) Cheers Peter Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Max on July 15, 2011, 08:22:16 am I totally agree with you Peter, it is a market that is unwanted right now but there has to be a time when it comes into its own.
When I had an antique shop in the 70's we disparaged most of the Victorian pieces..not old enough...and as for Edwardian!! the furniture was merely firewood..so things do change. Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Max on July 15, 2011, 08:58:28 am and George, buying Chinese porcelain on line is hazardous to say the least. With porcelain you have to handle it, get the feel of it and the texture, taste it, smell it ...it is so hard to define but I can tell a fake from genuine if its in my hand.It is purely by an instinct. SO going by photographs is fraught with difficulties, I dont believe 90% of listings either in auction houses or on ebay.
My best buys have been when the person or the auction room genuinely do not know what they have. I saw a listing for a "old wood bird whistle"..my heart raced...I got it for £4! it was a Peruvian occarina from about 900, so its a good idea to keep hunting. Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on July 15, 2011, 11:14:44 am I have quite a few bottles from the mid teens to the late thirties, and yes they were once easier to obtain, although that has changed significantly already and prices going up. I am always told (and seems to hold true), that after the Japanese invasion of China in 1937, IPB production dropped to a trickle and did not really get back into gear until mid-50s. I only have a couple of bottles dated between 1937 and 1955, say. The Shandong faction got things going again about that time (Zhang Wentang and early students),but good glass was scarce and expensive in early post-revolution days, so many examples of bottles are in cheaper lower quality grade glass. This period is characterized by glass that is less transparent, and more opaque, so they would give the bottle a brown/sepia hue to make the painting stand out more. Another characteristic of the 50s/60s is that a lot of those bottles were signed with known painter names but were not necessarily copies of existing works. Not sure why exactly they did that, but it was clear they were NOT ZLY, MSX, Ding Erzhong, Bi Rongjiu type material or subjects..
Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 15, 2011, 11:49:37 am Hi Pat
Wow ! That's real pure gold history. Never heard that before in such detail. Where did you get that from? Zhang Wen Tang is off my DB radar screen completely. No record whatsoever ( unless it's an alternativ english spelling : check your copy of my DB in case there's a match somewhere) Is that because he belongs to the late Middle School ? I would be interested to research this period in the longer term , but only out of academic interest , not to collect seriously BTW: there's a comment by Max below about the need to FEEL an artefact . This echoes something Ian Hardy once wrote to me about Zhou Leyuan bottles : he said he needs to FEEL them to know if they are real or not (something about the quality / density of the glass) I reckon I'm pretty much au fair with anything painted post 2000, but even so I could be fooled by a poor quality photo * . And anyway, anything painted post 2000 can be checked with the artist , so ... SO WHAT ? * One modern artist I greatly admire is Sun Honglin who suddenly developed a completely new style about 2 years ago which I am collecting voraciously , as also are a few other top Chinese collectors . In 4.2010 I visited Sun Hong Lin's home and saw a new series in partly-painted form, and agreed to buy 3 of them " as then seen" . Cost was US$2K / bottle "friendship price" approx . Sun Honglin's parting words were " my style is unique - no-one can copy it ". And I believed him, never having ever EVER seen a bottle painted like his . Imagine therfore my shock when 10 minutes later I walked in to Wang Xisan's Hengshui Museun shop further down the street and there in the student artist section was a bottle that I would have sworn was painted by Sun Honglin if the signature has been his . It was in fact painted by a student artist of Wang Xisan , copying Sun Honglin, and I bought for only US$40 just to teach myself a lesson Cheers Peter PS : This Forum is really turning up some amazing interactions and info. We may not always agree and from time to time maybe we must agree to differ, but MAN ! do we learn a lot more by open interaction ! Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Max on July 15, 2011, 12:49:17 pm It is very hard to put into mere words how I can feel if an item is fake or not...I deal in antique toys and dolls and can tell instantly if I am holding a fake.I suppose if you know your subject then knowledge is your friend.
Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 15, 2011, 04:19:37 pm Hi Max
Indeed YES ! It is often said, somewhat disparangly, that only Hugh Moss has enough knowledge to be able to validate snuff bottles of the 1700 /1800 period with authority. Thus bottles that have passed through his hands at any time in the past and have been thus validated are considered le creme de la creme and will never lose their value . At the recent Bloch Collection auctions ( which Bloch Collection was , I have heard said, was originally built up largely on the personal advice of Hugh Moss to George Bloch) it was noticeable that many bottles were being bought back by Hugh Moss himself, either for his own re-sale at some time in the future or on behalf of other collectors. This is the essence of the whole "prime collectable" market . If one can corner the very apex of any collectable market ( snuff bottles, art, vintage cars, whatever) one is in a very powerful position. There's a website I subscribe to www.artdaily.org : truly amazing website with a daily free newsletter ( spam -free) containing amazing info on everything from the latest news on deep outer space, to fossils , to model steam engines ( which is how I discovered the world of " Gauge One" model live steam engines, which I also now also collect to a very small degree) . But the main thrust of the daily newsletter is auction results and other news in the art world . And frankly I am totally amazed at the prices fetched in the art world by what I consider as total RUBBISH - I would not hang such pictures in my home even if you paid me US$1, 10, 100 Million . But that's the way it goes in the art world . A pre-WW2 artist , now extant, is hyped and suddenly a picture that he sold for US$20 in 1930 to keep his family alive is worth US$20 Million in 2011. What does this have to say about late Middle and Modern School Inside Painted Bottles ( IPBs) ? Well - in principle - exactly the same. The "hyping" has already taken place in the Early and "Middle -Middle" IPBs, although I must say that I am suprised at how low prices even fully-provenanced prime Middle-Middle School artists' bottles (eg Zhou Leyuan) fetched in the Bloch auctions so far . US$10K could buy one a prime provenanced ZLY. But it's only a matter of time before that becomes US$100K, same as the much-prized Ma Shaoxuan portrait bottles which are much more rare, thus much more "collectable" and which do auction now for US$100 K I think the whole world of IPBs is one particular art form which has yet to be appreciated world-wide , but when it finally IS appreciated it will explode, because this is an art form which one can display and enjoy - every single piece - in one's home ! Whereas one can only hang a very few canvas paintings in one's now (increasingly small) home. Let's put this in context home-wise. I own a 70 sq meter apartment in the middle of central Hong Kong , a stone's throw (=10 minutes walking distance) from every key business building in the prime HK Central district. I bought it years ago at the bottom of a super bottom market crash in 2003 ( dot com crash + SARS epidemic) for a song and a dance , but now it's worth over US$1 Million. That money would buy me a small mansion in the USA or Europe, but even so if this is my permanent home there's a limit as to how much canvas art I can display in such a USA or European mansion : 10... 20... max 30 paintings . I only have room in this 70 sq m apartment to hang just 2 canvas paintings out of the dozen or so BEAUTIFUL Chinese landscape paintings I bought in the 1980's when I first started to work in China , each purchased at less than US$ 1K , but each worth now well over US$10K ( I did not bother to , nor did I have the knowledge to,buy PRIME collectable paintings 30 years ago: otherwise I would now own a dozen paintings each worth US$ 100 K ) But I can easily display my modest collection of 200+ IPBs, and there's room for many more before I finally run out of shelf space. The one thing in this little planet called "our world" that is finite is SPACE , thus collectable art will invevitably progress towards miniatures. At some time in the future, long - very long- after I am dead and gone, there will come a tipping point ( read the book of the same name!) when suddenly the main focus of most collections will move to miniatures . At that time IPBs will suddenly explode in value, just as postage stamps ( another miniature) What am I saying ? I am saying that IPBs is an art form waiting to be discovered But am I hyping to my own benefit ? Certainly not so because it will never happen in my lifetime ( I am 62, going on 63) and probably not either in the next generation. But by about 2050 it will happen, and it will happen big-time. In the meantime : I am content to enjoy looking at ALL my bottles every day as I work at home, and to know that I am helping to keep the " Van Gogh"s and " Monet"s of today in a reasonable standard of living and happiness as long as I and they live. Thus my single objective is to promote the Modern IPB shool world-wide and try to make sure the artists at least get a decent wage for their work Somehow - certainly not through my doing , nor even due to the painstaking work of Bill Patrick over 20 long years -but most probably due to the sudden rising "Nouveau riche" class in China - which will soon ecplise the West for sales of super-cars ( Lamborghinis etc) as per today's news in HK - Mopern IPBs will burst onto the WW art scene Let's hope for that Day. But I will never live to see it Cheers Peter Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on July 15, 2011, 08:33:03 pm There are 2 answers here to the thread:
I read a lot and try to do a lot of research 1) about the late middle school, I am comfortable to say that this ended in 1937. Many experts would agree with this. Zhan Wentang (Jing Xue) and Xue Jingwan (Fu Chen), the latter being the son of Xue Xiangdu (an old master) were asked in 1956 to revive inside painted bottle production by the Boshan Colored Glaze Cooperation factory. Jing Xue (Zhang Wentang) is also the one credited with inventing baked color, allowing a more lasting and more colorful picture inside the bottle (and water-resistant). In addition, Xue Jingwan appears to have been the first to use a brush similar to painting on porcelain, another breakthrough in inside bottle painting... In 1966 their apprentices Li Kechang, Sun Jijie, and Xue Xixiang trained Wang Xisan and Liu Shouben on how to use this type of brush in the Beijing faction, after which Wang Xisan went to Hebei and Liu Shouben remained in Beijing. These were from then on the 3 factions, ... This is all in Wang Xisan's CIPMA pages 44-46, so even acknowledged by Wang Xisan himself. 2) Yes, the need and effect of holding and examining a bottle personally can not and should not be underestimated, if not only for the obvious reasons, but also for the effect it has on us when we examine it Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on July 15, 2011, 09:02:09 pm One other thing about the late middle school. In another discussion here, I challenged the long and commonly held belief that inside painted bottles were not used to hold and use snuff but for decoration. 20-30 of the bottles in my collection that are dated somewhere between 20s and late 30s have either traces of snuff marks and some have snuff still inside (no mistaking the scent of snuff folks), or in the worst case, traces of having been cleaned (!! ouch ouch, dont ever do that or try to, I have some that are sad reminders of this), or traces and scratch marks from the spoon on the inside. It is therefore an assertion on my part that the 'masses' had access to cheaper, lower grade bottles painted by yet unknown students/painters, and the 'value' of the painting was just a gimmick or maybe the use of snuff in IPBs was more widespread than we believe it to be.
On the other hand, I will also share one of the 'tricks' used by sellers/dealers to 'age' and 'retrofit' older bottles to makes us believe they are old: 1) to mimmick the traces of 'snuff' they use fine brown sugar and slighty dampen the bottle so that it cakes on a bit. If later they turn over the bottle, the non-caked on powder falls out and voila.... So.. also check the scent. If you know snuff , you will know... And by the way, I am guessing some use real snuff if they have access to it. Although in China today that is less of a problem as it has virtually dissappeared. As an example, I try to find old (full) snuff containers one sold for commercial use, and it is rarer than hen's teeth. 2) they will slightly wash out the bottle, creating an 'older' effect as the paint fades somewhat almost immediately. This works less and less with newer painted bottles as the paint is oil-based, and as Peter indicated, the period from 1990 on is quite well documented, and painters ar mostly still alive for us to check on. Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 15, 2011, 10:40:36 pm Hi Pat
More pure gold info re late Middle School Man ! This Forum sure is FUN !!!! ( And if I sometimes write some silly stuff please - all of you - forgive me : I never really grew up.... ) I have started a word.doc in my Middle School file called " the sayings of Pat" ( well, not quite such a distinguished sobriquet , but everything you have written I have cut n stuck and attributed to you) Re the REAL SNUFF thing... on the day after the opening of the WXS Museum in BJ we all took a coach to Shijiazhuang to see the WXS Museum there which was in fact opened last year. Even bigger than the Museum in BJ, but less prime bottles. Helluva journey - 4 hours each way - but I made good use of the time talking to the Singapore guys , especially Yeo Kong Hoo who has a collection of every WXS bottle for every year WXS ever painted ( His book in WXS, Liu Shouben and Dong Xue is reviewed in the latest ICSBS journal and I now have 2 copies, one bought from Richard and another given to me and signed by Yeo in BJ : I did not realize until I got back home that they were the same book - so one copy spare FOC for first dibs : but on second thoughts I think it should go to Bill Patrick . Richard can easily arrange local sales in Asia and indeed WW because he has a side interest in books on snuff bottles , which is great ) BILL : if you are reading this : Yeo's book will soon find its way to you via a USA colleague visiting China ...... oh yes .... the Snuff thing ........ when we left the Shijiazhuang Museum we each got a gift pack , which included a small round tin of WXS SNUFF ! No Joking ! I have yet to open the tin ( the lid is somehow stuck down) but as a school kid I did - as fad - try snuff ( loved the menthol flavored version) . Zero "kick" " just a huge sneeze after sniffing Cheers Peter Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: snuffbottlecollector on July 21, 2011, 05:08:07 am Thanks Peter.I look forward to the book!
Pat - thanks for the wealth of information. Would you consider writing this history and illustrate it with pictures of some of the bottles from your collection for www.snuffbottlecollector.com? While I have plenty of material to post there that I haven't had time to do yet (thanks to Peter, some of my own and hopefully from Richard), I think this is valuable reading. Bill Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on July 21, 2011, 08:18:56 pm Bill
This is on my to do list. Right now, a lot of this is 'either' in my head storage or in 'physical storage. I am looking for a significant break in my consulting life (not necessary living the semi-retired life I had in mind while moving here!!). I am actually very very interested in filling the gaps from the late 20s/30s to 1960 (re-emergence of quality painted bottles). I think I have enough material in my collection that shows the evolution (includes continuous use of IPB snuff bottles as containers, stagnation, degration of quality, mass production, lower quality glass materials, invention of baking, oil based paints, different brushes etc..) The late middle period and early modern period are the least documented and much harder to find out ANY information, in addition to the widespread practice of using the masters' signatures on the works produced in that time and the lack of proper dating. (Zhou Leyuan, Ma Shou Xuan, Ding Erzhong, AND Zhang Wentang, Xue Jingwan) singatures are rampid on the bottles, but clearly are NOT of the quality of the masters. On the other hand, though, we should not dismiss them as low-grade, as the skill was just re-emerging under Wang Zhen Tang and Xue Jingwan of the Shandong faction/school, and were obviously student bottles, but of historical significance nevertheless. One of the indications of the Shandong style and the way to date them properly is that the students were using Zhang Wentang's name on the bottles, whereas in his 'top' period he would use his art name (Jing Xue), and rarely his given name. I will produce pieces of info and snippets over time and document it here for later re-use. I would love to identify another collector who has a lot of bottles of the 30-early 60s period so that we can compare notes and agree/disagree based on our collections and experience. However, I am afraid that given the ICSBS type collectors preference for old bottles and the apparent lack of local collectors during that period left a gaping hole, which is proving very difficult to reconstruct. In any case, I do have a wealth of bottles from this period, probably around 100 or so that I need to dig out, translate, catalog, take pictures etc. I just lack time... and ready access to a Chinese speaker to read/translate all the info (and properly interpret, one needs to have a interest in Chinese history to get the true meaning/significance/context). However, once that is done, the result should at least be able to provide a bridge from the middle period to the modern period. Title: Re: Help needed to identify this bottle / Edited.. ID Yong Shou T'ien Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 22, 2011, 06:32:14 am Hi Pat,
This stuff is pure gold...... You MUST write it up in full Meanwhile I am cut n sticking all your Forum postings Cheers Peter |