Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Hi everyone! This is the first time I am posting my collection here. Let me present you this blue and white porcelain snuff bottle in the form of Meiping with the "Yu Chun Tang" mark. This is one of my favorites in my existing collection. Enjoy and let me know your opinions!

Your pics are way to large to view.  Can you please edit them to a smaller size before uploading.

Can help you better then..

Dear Samson,

    I agree with George. Too big!
'YU' means "Jade"
'TANG' means "Hall of"
What does 'CHUN' mean?

  What is the bottle's provenance? Does it have provenance?
But I can't see the bottle in its present configuration.
Please access the material about sizing photos, and do that, and delete the present ones.
Or do what I do, since I'm totally useless with technology  -
Ask George or Steven or David to help you.
Best,
Joey

Have them down to size..

Dear Samson,
how high is your bottle? Are you sure that it is a snuff bottle and not a mini reproduction of a vase? I mean, there is a spoon attached to the cover? I am asking so because the shape, the decoration and the type of cover are belonging from the earliest b&w pieces, the meiping vases of the Yuan period.
Anyway, if it is a bottle it is really a nice one.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Thanks George for your hand in resizing the pics! I will pay attention on that while posting pics in the future!

Joey, "Chun" means spring. Regarding the bottle's provenance, I really have no idea. I purchased it from an antique store here in Hong Kong. Its owner seems to have traded snuff bottles for decades.

Giovanni, yes it is indeed a snuff bottle, it's height is about 6.5cm. For your reference, I am attaching few more pics, two showing its spoon.

I was also thinking may not be a snuff bottle, but sure enough it is !  Never seen a top/stopper with spoon attached like this before..

Very interesting..

Dear Samson,
if before the pictures was too big, now they are too small. First at all, you should crop the picture so that the bottle will take almost all the area of the picture. As you see, now only about one fifth of picture’s area is taken by the bottle. Then you should resize the picture so that the bigger side will be about 900 pixels.
In these new pictures I am not able to see how the spoon is attached to the bell shaped cover. It will be also interesting to see, for what is possible, the inner part of the neck, or at least to know how it is shaped. What I mean is: does the inner part of the neck has a cylindrical shape for about  one half or one centimeter, so that the spoon can’t be tilted when the cork is inside the neck?
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

     Irrespective of the way the bottle and stopper fit, how would you date the object?
I feel it looks early, say ca.1760-1830, or even earlier.
Is that your feeling? I have not seen the glaze flaws I know from Yongzheng, or I might have suggested as early as that, or even Kangxi.
   I could be all wrong, but it does 'feel' early to me.

Dear Samson,

   I will be in Hong Kong for a week in Nov., after the ICSBS convention the first week of Nov. In LA. Is there any way I could see this bottle while I'm in HKG then?

Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,
I can’t have an idea about the age of this bottle with these pictures. In the very first picture we see some blemish on the rim of the cover, but it is not clear what we have there, if glaze fritting or damages.
I still think that there are great chances that this is indeed a miniature vase and somebody simply glued there a spoon with the cork.  Has somebody already seen something similar? What will tell for sure if it is a miniature  vase or a snuff bottle is the inner part of the neck, but I am not sure if I was clear enough and if Samson understood my meaning.
Kind regards
Giovanni

The final size of the pics are my fault.. Guess should have left them larger when editing..

Maybe Samson can repost them..

Giovanni, please find attached some close-up shots I attempted to make for the bottle's rim area as well as its cork and spoon attached to its cover.

Actually, I fell in love with this bottle the very first time I saw it on the display cabinet of the shop where I bought it. In fact that was always the first time I visited the shop itself. I was immediately attracted by its elegant blue & white pattern and style as well as its distinguished shape. Without knowing much about it, it took no time to leave a vivid impression in my mind. Every since then, I had been asking the shop owner to show it to me almost every time I visited the shop and after roughy half a year I decided to own it. I just love it! Just a little story between me and the snuff bottle.

Dear Samson,
you have the bottle in hands so you must be in condition to clarify if it is a snuff bottle or a miniature vase. Look at the cover/stopper, and try to understand if it has been made with the function of holding the spoon, or if it is just like a cup with the spoon glued at the bottom.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni, from my observation, the cover is designed and made to have a cork and spoon attached to it. Hence, I believe it is a snuff bottle.

If so dear Samson, then no doubt, it is a real snuff bottle.
Thank you
Giovanni

And one of a kind Samson..

Would like to hear from others where it might be dated to .

    Giovanni described the decoration as harking back to the Yuan Dynasty style, which is 14th C. I also think it is copying that style.

     But it is obviously an homage to that style, NOT from that period. My feeling is that it might well be Qianlong period, but could it be as early as Kangxi period?

     An interesting, and possibly important, snuff bottle, in any event.
Best,
Joey
 

Not quite one of a kind.  Here is a new bottle coming up for auction in a few days with the same hall mark. 

Link: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/45579213_qing-dynasty-bluewhite-snuff-bottle-marked

Charll

Nice find Charll !

George, Samson and All,

Unlike some of the comments above I have seen a few of these bottles around and they generally tend to be newish in origin.   I was holding off on making any comments on Samson bottle because the picture resolution is not sufficient for me to judge at the moment.  With Samson bottle it may come down to having to see it in person. 

I also have some concern with the coarseness of the clay along the unglazed foot rim. If it's baby smooth it may be older then what I initially thought when first looked at it.   

Charll   

Thanks everyone for offering your views and opinions on my bottle. I love the discussion
and the synergy in it! In any case, this bottle is one of my favorites and it has a special standing in my collection. Anyway, perhaps, the mark at its base would offer some clue? Had anyone heard or read about the mark of "Yu Chun Tang" before?

Hi Charll! Nice to hear from you! The bottle in the link you posted looks very similar to the one I have apart from some slight difference with its drawing pattern! Not very sure how accurate the description regarding its age is though. I've actually been researching into my bottle based on what I can see on it but the findings have been rather limited. One question I have is the history of this hall and whether it existed at any time during the Qing period.

Dear all,
I didn't comment about age because of the lack of resolution in the pictures seen up to now. But I must say that since the beginning I was dubious about being it an old botlte, if it was a snuff bottle. This is the reason why I did insist in understanding if it was really a snuff bottle or a miniature vase. If it was a miniature vase, then there was more chances that it was an old piece. But being it a snuff bottle, I have doubts, because I think that the imitation of a Yuan meiping vase doesn't fit with old bottles, it is much more understandasble with the mentality of forgers or recent manufactures. I am convinced that the bottle found by Charll is supporting these my thoughts. BTW, just thoughts from my side here, nothing supported by evidence. Who knows I could change completely if I could handle the bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni

I agree Giovanni..

Dear All,

    This is why I hate to try and judge over the 'net! I'm almost always wrong!  ::) :'( ;D
I had really never before seen a bottle like this. Which of course, should have warned me right away - since Chinese Art is almost invariably variations on a theme, not to have seen a single other example in over 46 years, should have made alarm bells ring.

    But it really looks good, especially the colour of the cobalt blue. However, Giovanni and Charll are correct - the quality of the photography was such that it was hard to judge.

    And hope springs eternal...
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

I came across this info when browsing the internet this evening. This is the only auction record  available to date.

http://www.xlysauc.com/english/auction5_det.php?ccid=588&id=78795

What do you reckon?

Dear Samson and all,

Unique, one-of-a-kind is always dangerous when buying Chinese ceramics and especially so in a field as highly collected and published like snuff bottles.  Why? Because even the 'best' fake ceramics are made in series of at least three or more. I have been told more than once that anything unique with less than a 15 to 20 year verifiable provenance will usually not be accepted as genuine even when experts agree that that it really looks correct. If no other example has surfaced during 15 or more years, we might safely assume it to be genuine.   

This is such an attractive looking Blue & White snuff bottle that I am sure Joey would readily remember having seen one as part of an important auction or trusted dealer's stock or in an ICSBS member's collection in the past.  If fact I would imagine that any serious collector or dealer with interest in blue & white porcelain snuff bottles such as Robert Kleiner or Joey Silver would have readily added it to their collection.  So Charll (the avid SB Hunter) has seen a few of these mini Meiping shaped snuff bottles recently in small auctions where fakes occasionally turn up, but this was a new one to Joey. The only reasonable explanation is that it is "newish" from the 21st century. 

Best regards,

Tom B.

Dear Samson,
I don’t know which Auction house is that, nevertheless I put my hand in the fire that that lot can’t be taken as a reference. My first reaction as I saw the lot: two identical bottles? Hmmm………quite suspicious!! Then, since I did heard that in China there are Auction houses who do sell fakes (no wonder, there are even Museums based only on fake “relics” in China!), I did look at some of the other items on sale.  I did look at porcelain, because it is a field where I have some knowledge. Click six times on “Next” pushbutton in the right lower corner of the screen. You will see that there is a red porcelain round box in the list. Click on it: Lot number 3049, a brand new piece, with Kangxi mark, and the Auction house does not even mention a possible age nor the presence of the mark. Sold for 50,000 RMB. Who bought it is crazy.  See the next item in the list, lot number 2921: Four (yes, four!!) super rare Jun cups and stands. Why do not sell them at dozens then? Or for Kilo? Totally ridiculous! Clear fake, and was sold for 460,000 RMB! Who bought them is not crazy, he is stupid. I think that it’s enough, no?

Dear Tom B., we did post at the same time. Same idea I see. Dear Samson, if you live in China, stay away from that Auction house!
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

Thanks for adding the information about the Chinese auction results; we can't warn people often enough about those crooks.

Thank you! Thank you everyone for your precious comments! What I've heard and learned here in these couple of days since I joined the forum is that SB collection is something that really requires years and years of experience to explore and deepen the knowledge, discussions here I believe just helps expedite this process! That's what I need badly as an amateur collector! Really got to be very cautious these days with adding anything into my collection, keep collecting with a blind eye is just like a gamble, a huge gamble! Especially in today's world where fakes flourishes! This is the advice Robert Hall offered me yesterday when I visited his booth at the HK antique show. Really glad to have met this big name in the business. He also offered me views on couple of other bottles of mine. Thinking back, I should have brought along this porcelain one for him to have a look at too and see what he's got to say about it. Regret that.

But if anyone of you would drop by in HK soon or anytime in future, I'd be glad to meet up for more sharings!

Dear Tom B., and Dear Giovanni,

     You are both right, and especially your cogent analysis, Tom; re. my being persuaded it was 'right' and Charll  sure it was modern; Charll is much more 'au fait' about the modern  small auction houses.
     I am still looking forward to seeing Samson's collection when I'm in Hong Kong, including this bottle, but expect to be disappointed with this B & W! I was hoping it was a treasure I could enjoy looking at, as I enjoy seeing a number of Steven's Wang Xisan bottles. Or Charll's Wei Jianchao Panda bottles; or Pat's bottles; or Tom L.'s very Shibui plain Mineral and Jet bottles, etc. and possibly buying, if I could tempt Samson.

       I love looking at others' treasures, though I also am happy to add them to my collection if they are for sale at a price I can afford.  ;D

    Best,
Joey