Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Dear All,

I have just bought this lacquer bottle over the week-end.

I think it is real lacquer as the multiple layers can be identified (note the concentric rings at the chrysanthemum leaves).

I have seen this carving with bats, mask and ring, flower pots and the Shou character in new pieces, so I don´t rule it out as a modern piece.

On the other hand, if a modern copy, why a two-character qianlong mark rather than the usual four-characters mark?

It will be great to hear your thought on this bottle.

Best Regards,

Marcos


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Hi Marcos,

I would like to see an image taken from a bit more distance and then cropped.  Your images seem to distort the shape and make it look awkward. It does appear to be carved lacquer, but I would like you to examine the area where it was chipped.  If you can't identify various layers there, then it is probably a very modern fake.  The two character incised mark is something that can be found on some Qianlong period lacquer SB's, but not often copied in the past 200 years.  ???

Hi Marcos,

Most of the ones with brass showing at the foot and the mouth are modern examples, made from resin. However, the layers on your bottle appear to indicate that it is genuine lacquer, but I cannot comment on the possible age.

I recall reading somewhere that there are no genuine Qianlong cinnabar lacquer snuff bottles with reign marks. 

I recall this as well..

Hello Tom,

I took the pictures with a bit more distance as you suggested. I also varied the angles and light.

I couldn´t identify the layers on the chipped part.

On the other hand, I did the the cotton swab test as suggested on this site https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar and it discoloured:

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Flacquer%25202%2F22_zpsgxsxzd7a.jpg&hash=14b657ac4c88f049e9236b79af285205) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/lacquer%202/22_zpsgxsxzd7a.jpg.html)

However, I can see the layers very faintly at some angles. The most obvious the concentric rings at the base (the first photo was taken from the website https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar (https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar), the second photo the lower part of my bottle:

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Flacquer%25202%2Fimg05_zpsx37unk08.jpg&hash=ef2e01eb716a2aa60574fb5871e06d98) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/lacquer%202/img05_zpsx37unk08.jpg.html)


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There was a topic started by Giovanni in which you guys argued that there are no genuine Qianlong cinnabar lacquer snuff bottles with reign marks http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1132.0.html (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1132.0.html).

On the other hand, I am curious about the two-character mark. I read somewhere it was an experimental mark.

I also saw a similar one here http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-carved-cinnabar-lacquer-snuff-bottle-qianlong-5891354-details.aspx (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-carved-cinnabar-lacquer-snuff-bottle-qianlong-5891354-details.aspx).

I also noticed that the mark at the Christie´s bottle is slight different from mine. Please note the top character on the right looks like  人 in my bottle (second picture).

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Flacquer%25202%2Fa_carved_cinnabar_lacquer_snuff_bottle_qianlong_two-character_mark_in_d5891354_001h_zpsoghntknv.jpg&hash=5ef2109c4081ebc6f3a8d1cb62da610a) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/lacquer%202/a_carved_cinnabar_lacquer_snuff_bottle_qianlong_two-character_mark_in_d5891354_001h_zpsoghntknv.jpg.html)
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Thanks a lot,

Marcos

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Hello Marcos,

First things first, my statement that I had no knowledge of any Qianlong Mark & Period carved lacquer snuff bottles was correct back in 2012.  At that time I was not aware of the example sold by Christie's South Kensington last year.  We can assume it is a genuine example with a provenance of, "With Y.F. Yang, Hong Kong, acquired prior to 1981" and the price realized being double the low estimate.  I have been aware of that bottle since it appeared in the Christie's catalog and that is why I suspected your bottle right away. 

Your new photos show the problem quite clearly.  Your Q-tip test proves it isn't true Chinese lacquer and the macro of the 'layers' shows they are molded on the surface.

Steven posted a small image

of http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1132.0/msg,10106.html (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1132.0/msg,10106.html)


Personally I like to use the following 15th century Ming carved cinnabar lacquer brushpot to demonstrate the way layers of carved through lacquer should look - they should be almost like a watermark in paper.  If they look like rolling hills with tiny peaks and valleys, then they were mold on the surface.  Real layers of lacquer become a solid that is very smooth when properly carved and finished.

Dear Marcos, all,
I must say that I was dubious about those "layers" since the beginning. It is impossible to see layers that way on the petals. The petals are almost parallel to the body of the bottle, hence almost parallel to the layers. If those that we see were layers, it was only possible if the petals was very open, at least 45 degrees from the body, which is not the case. I don't know if I have been clear.
Giovanni

I have to agree with others that bottle is not a real cinnabar bottle.I inspected evey single image, cant find the evidence of the layers.its modern bottle as we can easily tell from the shape and the overall look, the coating might be lacquer, but its not done by the traditional way.

Steven

I still have my problems with the ex-Y.F.Yang 7.0 cm High Cinnabar Lacquer Snuff Bottle sold for circa $6,304 as Qianlong Mark and Period in May 2015 by Christies South Kensington.

I still find it hard to believe that the very fine snuff bottle sold by Christie's is 18th Century.  If it is, then it would be unique.  I first became interested in Chinese snuff bottle because I bought a great group of seven snuff bottles solely due to a two color lacquer SB in that group.  I started to study and buy lacquer snuff bottles and have owned more than twenty genuine carved lacquer snuff bottles since then. I have owned some of the highest quality carved lacquer snuff bottles ever made including the current world auction record Qianlong Imperial 5.8 cm high example sold by Christie's NY ion March 2012

My problems include:

1. the mark which appears to be unique
2. the shape as already stated unique among genuine Qianlong examples
3. the water diaper pattern as seen in the following image

I found a Qianlong 2 character mark 5.1 cm high carved cinnabar snuff bottle from a "nobody in particular" collection that Skinner Boston described as 19th Century sold for $300.00 in 2006 that is very similar to the YF Yang example. 

I agree the Christie's South Kensington example is a slightly better quality and more convincing, but it is not better many other early 19th century SB's I have handled.  The following was my first cinnabar SB.  I was sure that it was 18th Century, but wound up with a 1780-1820 dating with advice from Hugh Moss.

And the following excellent late Qing SB

Dear Tom et al.

Carved cinnabar laquer has always been a difficult subject for me. The bright side of buying non-genuine piece is that it goes towards tuition fees ("Rebbe Gelt", as Joey mentioned a while ago).

Just for the sake of clarity, I want to add that this picture (with the petals) was not taken from my bottle but copied from the article on this website www.realorrepro.com/article/cinnabar

I am confused about the acetone test. In the mentioned article the author states that "genuine lacquer will discolor the swab" (moistened with fingernail polish remover).

So does it discolour genuine lacquer or doesn't?

Dear Marcos,

Your 'petals' look so similar I did not notice

Acetone and other solvents won't have any effect on genuine antique lacquer.  Asian lacquer was first used to make other materials impervious to moisture and solvents. An excerpt from the history of Asian lacquerware on the website of the Metropolitan Museum NY:

"East Asian lacquer is a resin made from the highly toxic sap of the Rhus verniciflua tree, which is native to the area and a close relative of poison ivy. In essence, lacquer is a natural plastic; it is remarkably resistant to water, acid, and, to a certain extent, heat. Raw lacquer is collected annually by extracting the viscous sap through notches cut into the trees. It is gently heated to remove excess moisture and impurities. Purified lacquer can then be applied to the surface of nearly any object or be built up into a pile. Once coated with a thin layer of lacquer, the object is placed in a warm, humid, draft-free cabinet to dry. As high-quality lacquer may require thirty or more coats, its production is time-consuming and extremely costly.

While items covered with lacquer have been found in China dating to the Neolithic period, lacquerware with elaborate decoration requiring labor-intensive manufacturing processes made its first appearance during the Warring States period. ..."

Hello Tom,

Thanks for clarifying the acetone issue.

I found another similar bottle with the two-character mark at this Ohio auction house https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/29231960_19th-century-snuff-bottle

Dear Giovanni,

Petals do actually show the layers  of the lacquer sometimes, but not as overtly as on Marcos' SB.  If you look at the macro of the late Qing bottle I posted above, you can barely detect some of the layers.  You have to understand that a genuine old lacquer snuff bottle was made by applying numerous thin layers of lacquer over a core material.  Each layer needed to cure for a day or more and on the better examples each layer was smoothed before the next layer was applied.  For this reason each layer has a barely perceptible different coloration and when carved through you can see the individual layers under high magnification.

 

Dear Tom,

Thank you for sharing all the examples, I do agree with u about the chrisite's bottle, it doesn't look right to me. I think all ur concerns are valid.  :)

Steven

Dear Tom,
I think that you misunderstood me. Please re-read what I have written. I know I have not been clear but the only way to be more clear is to draw a sketch of what I meant. I don't know if I will ahve time to made it. If yes, I will post it and through it demonstrate that what we see on the petals of Marcos' bottle are not layers.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

I think I understand what you mean about the 45 degrees angle.

The petals are actually quite open and form a 45 degrees angle to the centre of the bottle. Please see the photographs below:

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Flacquer%25202%2FDSC08857_zps3ztuhuoa.jpg&hash=71f64448d14fb86d124a40c71204576b) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/lacquer%202/DSC08857_zps3ztuhuoa.jpg.html)
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Dear Tom,

Thank you so much for sharing all this photos and all the information you kindly shared with us regarding carved cinnabar lacquer.

I would be happy to hear your opinion regarding this bottle http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2982.0.html

Best Regards,

Marcos

Dear Steven,

I am happy that you share my opinion about the 'ex YF Yang' bottle sold by Christie's.  In YF Yang's defense he sold it "before 1981" and many areas of snuff bottles had not been fully researched back then.  At that time they were calling the Shunzhi marked bronze bottles "Mark & Period"; Bob Stevens believed the one dated 1646 was really that old!!    

I think you misunderstand Giovanni's remark about the circa 45 degree angle.  First let me say that with a molded bottle all surfaces are in their original state. 

If your bottle were a carved lacquer example we could explain the various surfaces using the attached image:

1.the green arrow points to a surface that would be at a circa 90 degree angle to the original outer surface before carving

2. the two black arrows point to outer edges of one 'carved out' petal and the yellow line is at approximately the deepest area of that petal.  I would say that the angle between either of the black arrows to the yellow line is roughly 45 degrees and that is why it would be possible to see the layers on that surface area.

I am not sure if I have been understood correctly. Let see. The layers are thin layers applied on the body. So each layer is absolutely parallel to the layer below it, until reaching the body. So each layer is parallel to the body. Right? There are no doubt about that. Now dear Marcos, the direction of the petals as you have shown in your two last pictures is at about 45 degrees from the AXIS of the bottle, or from its base if you wish. But at that position the petals are parallel to the outer surface of the ovoid body, if we could see it. Don’t you agree? So, the layers within the recessed area of each petal MUST look like those seen in the picture that you took from the website  https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar, i.e more or less concentric oblong circles. The only areas on which we should see the layers stacked as we see on the petals of your bottle are the vertical areas (vertical referred to the surface of the body) like for example the sides of the character Shou.
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

Yes I see what you mean now.  At a casual glance the rings in those two images look the same, but they are not.  I made a macro comparison with two numbered arrows to show the difference that you pointed out.

Arrow 1 points to the outer layer that was not carved

Arrow 2 points to the exposed layers at the top of a petal

I put a wavy line at deepest area of that petal to show that is mostly one layer as it should be.

I put a wavy line on the same area of Marcos' petal to show that the mold maker misunderstood the way it should look.

I hope that everyone can understand what I am trying show.