Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles / Early, Middle and Modern Period Bottles 内画鼻烟壶/早期,中期,现代 => Topic started by: marcos on March 22, 2016, 11:34:07 am



Title: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 22, 2016, 11:34:07 am
Dear All,

I am having a hard time identifying the painter of this bottle. The date is winter of 1868 or 1928.

The painting is a bit faded so doesnīt help much.

Also, what kind of glass is that?

Thanks once again.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08693_zpsigxpatcz.jpg&hash=f1f9d56f28cb99d06c2e1b5a34bda783) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08693_zpsigxpatcz.jpg.html)
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(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08695_zpskogeaxg3.jpg&hash=911385aa5bc688590596d3ddb31e1573) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08695_zpskogeaxg3.jpg.html)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08696_zpsyojwn6sj.jpg&hash=8c8d3e2b64b4c053f23a153dfa5a67ba) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08696_zpsyojwn6sj.jpg.html)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08697_zpsue95fvfy.jpg&hash=11303e1ce6b70131a0f1cf29a48f19b3) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08697_zpsue95fvfy.jpg.html)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08698_zpsv3wxkfas.jpg&hash=ef67422371b9fee6c0f91b5149f40786) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08698_zpsv3wxkfas.jpg.html)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08699_zps61hduyfv.jpg&hash=db381fd5ffa695094b1c4b9809b372eb) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08699_zps61hduyfv.jpg.html)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2Ftian%2520something%2FDSC08701_zpskokunrpr.jpg&hash=e7b0dff866965800ade03c029e960c52) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/tian%20something/DSC08701_zpskokunrpr.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 22, 2016, 03:19:54 pm
I really, really like this one.

I bit perplexed as having a hard time matching up what look like signatures, but sort of looks like multiple artists painted and signed..

I bet you will have have answers form the pros before I have a can even decipher this in part.. 

Most glass that was used by these Shandong students was purchased from the Boshan glass shops.  As you must have noticed, a different feel than most glass. If your correct on the possible date, then between the 1868 and 1928 choices, it makes more sense at 1928..  I am having a bit of a hard time with this to Marcos. But am searching ...

Nice bottle Marcos !



Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 22, 2016, 03:55:00 pm
Can you add a couple more pics showing the script on both "sides" of the bottle.. The side area along side the painted panels.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2016, 05:02:40 pm
Hi Marcos,

Yes, I agree with George, that is an interesting shandong bottle, I tend to agree with George on the date 1928, but can't make out the artist.

Best!

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 22, 2016, 05:04:53 pm
Dear Marcos,
 
      That is an interesting Shandong bottle.
      It looks like it could almost be 1868, but I'm not sure the Shandong artists were painting that early.
I could have seen 1890s, but based on the cyclical date it has to be either 1868 or 1928, so it must be the latter.

     George's comment that it looks like multiple artists and signatures, sounds interesting, and indeed it looks like a scroll
done as a joint effort by  a number of artists.

     I'm not an expert on Shandong. Better Steven, Charll, or Pat. But I will be waiting to see how they weigh in.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 22, 2016, 05:06:16 pm
Dear Steven,

      What about George's idea that a number of artists might have inscribed/collaborated on it?
Best,
Joey


Hi Marcos,

Yes, I agree with George, that is an interesting shandong bottle, I tend to agree with George on the date 1928, but can't make out the artist.

Best!

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2016, 05:15:05 pm
Dear Joey,

As I can tell, there is no signature on the bottle, so I don't think a number of artists will be the case.

Best,

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 22, 2016, 05:23:05 pm
Darn. It would have made a good story.  ::) >:( ;D

   I have a scroll painting of orchids with 7 colophons (accompanying inscriptions) each by a different artist.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 22, 2016, 06:57:11 pm
I have not looked through the books yet, but the one scene seems familiar, Maybe a peddler/merchant scene.

This is a hard one..  Would really like to see additional pics for the script along the sides of the bottle.

Thanks for letting us know there are no artists signatures..  But I think there may well be "a story to be told" throughout the bottle.. Just not able to piece it together yet..

On a side note, if you ever wish to part with it, please put me top of list  ;)


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2016, 07:50:15 pm
If the bottle was painted by a shandong artist,  there is no many stories to tell.

But the painting does remind me an early period bottle, my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?:)

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 22, 2016, 07:53:48 pm
What if it is a really good fake, done in the 1980s in a late 19th C. bottle  to fool collectors. It could be faded by being put in direct sunlight. Just a wild guess. I also thought it could be earlier. How early do we find Shandong work?
Best,
Joey


If the bottle was painted by a shandong artist,  there is no many stories to tell.

But the painting does remind me an early period bottle, my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?:)

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2016, 08:10:48 pm
I have never seen this kind of fake before, but there is a possibility there. 

Dear Joey, can you make out the date on the glass bottle itself? if you can, and the bottle itself it earlier than early period, then I will find out the story.:)

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 22, 2016, 08:44:24 pm
Dear Steven,
 
      I found WUCHEN, 1868 or 1928, in the panel with one piece of bamboo sticking up.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2016, 08:56:37 pm
Dear Joey,

Yes, George did make out the date, my question is that will you make out the date range of the glass bottle itself , not the date the bottle being painted. If the glass bottle is dated before early period , then this painting can be a early bottle.

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 22, 2016, 09:04:25 pm
Dear Steven,
 
      Sorry. I did not understand what you wanted before. And I'm also sorry, but I don't collect Shandong bottles.
The best to ask are Charll, George, Pat, Pin, or yourself.  ;D
I thought the bottle looked ca.1880-1920.
But I'm not an expert on Shandong.
It is very funny - we know more and more about less and less, until we know everything about nothing!  ;D (I did not make this up; someone else did!).
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on March 22, 2016, 09:10:13 pm
This is a genuine 1928 bottle like many in my collection ... Remember the Shandong artists never stopped painting even during the war and occupation years. This is likely Wen Quan, Ru Ting or Zhang Wentang based on date.

Here is a 1940 Wen Quan in my collection:

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay%5Cgreen_panels.htm


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 22, 2016, 09:12:47 pm
Hi George,

Indeed a tough one. Partly I am to blame as the pictures are not very clear. Tomorrow I will take better pictures from different angles. The ink is fading a little bit as well.

I am sure I have seen the scene with the two guys before, probably in a painting. Apparently the scene immitates (彷) one Shi Tian something Shan (石田)??

Thanks for the explanation regarding Shandong bottles. That is something new I learnt today.

I am happy you liked the bottle.

Steven,

Although there are no signatures, don't you think the caligraphy was done by different artists?





Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 22, 2016, 09:44:40 pm
Dear Marcos,

I believe the calligraphy is done by same person , it looks consistently to me.

Looking forward to seeing more photos, kinda interesting bottle.

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 23, 2016, 02:05:50 am
my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?:)



I don't think it wrong.  If Early Period painting is 1800 to 1870, then it would be correct for an Early artist ( 19th century ) painting in a 19th glass bottle. What am I missing in your question Steven ?

Marcos, a little more about Boshan/Po Shan glass..

This is from an article, Inside Painted Snuff Bottles of the Shantung School", A Stempel, Arts Of Asia, December, 1976.

( Also for Joey ) "The art in Shandong/Shantung area goes back to 1890, with at least one known bottle bearing that date, but the top quality referred to dates from only the 1970's. To fully understand the origin of this school, it must be realized that Po Shan has been and still is one of the three major glass manufacturing areas in China. Po Shan has been a glass center for about 400 years, certainly well back into the Ming dynasty, and when a continuing source was needed to fill the ever increasing demand in Peking, not so far away, for bottles which the resurrected art of painting could be carried out, it was the obvious choice. ( I ( the author ) use the term "resurrected" because inside painted bottles were produced in China much earlier in the nineteenth century, during a period known as the "Early School", but in much smaller numbers than at the end of the century. It is not certain if Peking was the only center of this earlier painting, but there is little reason to doubt that Po Shan was the source of the glass bottles even then.)"

On a side note Marcos. In my previous post where I tell of Boshan being the source, here it is spelled Po Shan.  I can not recall where I picked up my Boshan spelling from.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: YT on March 23, 2016, 03:01:11 am
This is a genuine 1928 bottle like many in my collection ... Remember the Shandong artists never stopped painting even during the war and occupation years. This is likely Wen Quan, Ru Ting or Zhang Wentang based on date.

Here is a 1940 Wen Quan in my collection:

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay%5Cgreen_panels.htm
Dear all,

I agreed with Pat and many others on the 20th assumption.
The overlay glass quality does not look 19th, moreover most of the early works are not painted on glass especially overlay. I have bottles from DuSong JuShi, YiRu JuShi and Gan XuanWen which are all crystals.


Dear Marcos,

Can I know the height of the bottle excluding the stopper?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 23, 2016, 07:46:19 am
Dear George,
 
     Thanks for the info, though I have the late Al Stempel's article - I've just not re-read it recently. I do remember that Julie Stempel made some of the best fish stew I'd ever tasted, when I ate dinner in their home in 1978 in Hong Kong.

     'Boshan' is the present Pinyin romanization of the Chinese name, and is pretty much the universally used version today, George.
'Po Shan' is the Wade-Giles version....
Best,
Joey

my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?:)



I don't think it wrong.  If Early Period painting is 1800 to 1870, then it would be correct for an Early artist ( 19th century ) painting in a 19th glass bottle. What am I missing in your question Steven ?

Marcos, a little more about Boshan/Po Shan glass..

This is from an article, Inside Painted Snuff Bottles of the Shantung School", A Stempel, Arts Of Asia, December, 1976.

( Also for Joey ) "The art in Shandong/Shantung area goes back to 1890, with at least one known bottle bearing that date, but the top quality referred to dates from only the 1970's. To fully understand the origin of this school, it must be realized that Po Shan has been and still is one of the three major glass manufacturing areas in China. Po Shan has been a glass center for about 400 years, certainly well back into the Ming dynasty, and when a continuing source was needed to fill the ever increasing demand in Peking, not so far away, for bottles which the resurrected art of painting could be carried out, it was the obvious choice. ( I ( the author ) use the term "resurrected" because inside painted bottles were produced in China much earlier in the nineteenth century, during a period known as the "Early School", but in much smaller numbers than at the end of the century. It is not certain if Peking was the only center of this earlier painting, but there is little reason to doubt that Po Shan was the source of the glass bottles even then.)"

On a side note Marcos. In my previous post where I tell of Boshan being the source, here it is spelled Po Shan.  I can not recall where I picked up my Boshan spelling from.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 23, 2016, 09:15:24 am
Hi, I am sending more pictures from different angles. This bottle is not easy to photograph.

Hi George,

Thanks for the extra information regarding Boshan glass.

It measures 6.2 cm without the stopper.

Thanks a lot for your help.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1064.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu365%2Fmarcosrvisconti%2FShandong%2FDSC08735_zpslcsnq49w.jpg&hash=883e096624f2cba024d57dbdf973288b) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/marcosrvisconti/media/Shandong/DSC08735_zpslcsnq49w.jpg.html)
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Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 23, 2016, 09:26:58 am
Nice photos Marcos, altho I still can't see any signature on it, but its fun bottle to talk through.:)

-George, My question is that if the bottle was a early bottle, then it has to be 1808 instead of 1868,I don't call 1868 as early period .so the glass bottle itself need to be dated late 18th C-very early 19th ., but so far, I have not seen any shandong glass overlay bottle dated that early.
-YT, I do agree that most of early bottles were painted in the crystal bottles as a rule, could it be some exceptions?

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 23, 2016, 09:46:12 am
Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       Shandong School started in the late Middle Period (ca.1890), to the best of my recollection (from reading; I wasn't there then. ::) :D).
Best,
Joey


Nice photos Marcos, altho I still can't see any signature on it, but its fun bottle to talk through.:)

-George, My question is that if the bottle was a early bottle, then it has to be 1808 instead of 1868,I don't call 1868 as early period .so the glass bottle itself need to be dated late 18th C-very early 19th ., but so far, I have not seen any shandong glass overlay bottle dated that early. but it could be some existing, we just don't know...

-YT, I agree that most of early bottles were painted in the crystal bottles as a rule, could it be some exceptions?

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 23, 2016, 12:06:50 pm
By the way, Happy Purim Joey.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 23, 2016, 04:04:36 pm
Dear Marcos,

        Happy Purim to you!
       I'm in Jerusalem, so we celebrate Shushan Purim (like all cities which were walled in the time of Joshua's conquest, which included Susa, Persia's capital (Shushan, in Hebrew), and Jerusalem). So we read the Megilla tomorrow evening and Fri. morning.
For me, it is also my Hebrew birthday (17.Mar. is my civil birthday).
Best to all, except any Agaggites!  >:(   ::) ;D
Joey


By the way, Happy Purim Joey.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 23, 2016, 04:19:49 pm
Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       

Yes,, early for Shandong is what I meant..


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 23, 2016, 04:38:13 pm
Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       

Yes,, early for Shandong is what I meant..

Thanks George for clarification. If we all agree with the bottle is a middle period bottle, then we don't have any argument. However I still suspect it can be a early period bottle painted in a shandong overlay bottle instead of in a quartz bottle as it normally was.  But only if the glass overlay bottle itself can be dated 1800 which I have a little doubt.

Steven



Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 23, 2016, 05:02:39 pm
Steven,

     I have a 'big' doubt, that there were Shandong style overlay glass bottles in 1808 (for the cyclical date to be right).  ;)
Good luck, though.  ::)
Joey


Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       

Yes,, early for Shandong is what I meant..

Thanks George for clarification. If we all agree with the bottle is a middle period bottle, then we don't have any argument. However I still suspect it can be a early period bottle painted in a shandong overlay bottle instead of in a quartz bottle as it normally was.  But only if the glass overlay bottle itself can be dated 1800 which I have a little doubt.

Steven




Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 23, 2016, 07:08:35 pm
Best I can contribute to this particular scene is to perhaps consider it being related to "woodcutter with his load", the woodcutter being one of the Four Honored Professions as Joey talks about in Worlds (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1870.msg23426.html#msg23426)..  Perhaps the other man is simply a beggar ?  Other than that, I have searched and not able to find a similar scene or partial scene that matches. 

Was hoping we might see a date on one of the two sides with the new pics, but I can not see one.. Beyond that Marcos, am going to have to lean on our Chinese members to help more with the visible scripts..

One last possibility is that we are looking at a Woodcutter and Fisherman theme as Tom talks about here (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1004.msg19709.html#msg19709).. Perhaps that is a fishing pole and basket full of fish, and offering some to the passing Woodcutter...  ?


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on March 23, 2016, 07:48:24 pm
Following this exchange with interest. I have never seen a signed Shandong bottle before 1895 and I personally don't believe there were any before that. In fact some Chinese think that Le San and Bi Rongjiu are one and the same people and that Le San was just a pen name. This could be true as Le San dated bottles don't appear after 1900.  At least I have not seen any or heard of any. This could indeed mean that Bi Rongjiu had improved significantly by that time.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 23, 2016, 11:57:56 pm
There is one script when someone has time that I am more curious about than others..


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: YT on March 24, 2016, 12:04:16 am
Dear George,

福如东海 is just a greeting for happiness and fortune.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 24, 2016, 12:05:33 am
Ok then.., thank you YT !


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 24, 2016, 12:37:42 am
After the research of the day, I think that I might find the artist.:) it might still has a quite bit discussion tho. I will share with you tomorrow, Kinda of tired after a long day. 


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 24, 2016, 06:20:08 am
Dear Pat,

      Thank you for reinforcing my belief that the Shandong School is  from Zhou Leyuan's period (1880-1893) or just after.
Best,
Joey


Following this exchange with interest. I have never seen a signed Shandong bottle before 1895 and I personally don't believe there were any before that. In fact some Chinese think that Le San and Bi Rongjiu are one and the same people and that Le San was just a pen name. This could be true as Le San dated bottles don't appear after 1900.  At least I have not seen any or heard of any. This could indeed mean that Bi Rongjiu had improved significantly by that time.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 24, 2016, 12:24:43 pm
Let go back to this bottle, most of you guys might call me crazy....

But I am 90% positive that is a early inside painting bottle, not for shandong school, but painted by YiRujuShi.

Here are the comparison I have done, Both the painting style and the calligraphy matched very well, I didn't notice the 半山 (Ban shan) was a art name until last night,   I don't think its a old copy either, since the painting can be copied, not the calligraphy like that.

Back to my concern at beginning, is possible the bottle itself can be dated 1808, the answer is possible, The bottle might not made for the inside painted for purpose, could be a medicine bottle as that time, please note the bottle's mouth is quite different with the later shandong bottles which were made for inside painting , the mouth is quite bigger, and I have not seen that big mouth in middle period bottles. its a sign for earlier bottle.

So after all, I tend to think the bottle is a early period bottle painted by YIRUJUSHI, not a very exciting bottle, but really interesting.( Add me to the list, if you want to part with it one day Marcos.:)

I am ready to discuss further....:)

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 24, 2016, 02:59:38 pm
Dear Steven,

Great job! That is very interesting.

Note Yiru Jushi painted the same scene in 1805 on a crystal bottle (and the scene after the Ming painter Shen Zhou / Shi Tian).

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18592/lot/124/ (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18592/lot/124/)
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20309/lot/4/ (https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20309/lot/4/)

Now, on both examples at Bonhams they mention a Manchurian script signature "Yun Jeng". Did you notice any Manchurian signature?

Cheers!




Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 24, 2016, 03:10:24 pm
While typing, Marcos found the comparison bottles .. Good job Marcos !

Another amazing piece of detective work Steven !   Sure a striking resemblance between the Woodcutter paintings ..  Seems like a perfect match and by the same hand.

I hesitate to comment about the calligraphy, but there seem to be some noticeable differences ...  I do understand and see your observation for the mouth, and I might include that the base as well is different than most.. The wide mouth is sure a plus for early bottle.

Have never seen any bottles with multiple panels as this labeled as medicine bottle before.. But most bottles I compare for possible previous medicinal use are via Raymond Li's books.  Not to say is not possible and certainly an option.





Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 24, 2016, 03:20:09 pm
Hi Steven,

I also noticed that Hugh Moss mentions an Yunfeng signature "in cursive script, and one seal of the artist, Yunfeng".

http://www.e-yaji.com/auction/photo.php?photo=1668&exhibition=12&ee_lang=eng (http://www.e-yaji.com/auction/photo.php?photo=1668&exhibition=12&ee_lang=eng)

Could that be it?





Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 24, 2016, 03:33:21 pm
Yes, that is it. But your bottle doesn't have  "Yun Jeng" signed.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 24, 2016, 06:12:55 pm
Steven,

     YOU AMAZE ME! And I'm a bit angry at myself for even doubting you a moment. 
You are correct, and there is no reason that this can not be a late 18th/early 19th C. glass bottle made to hold medicine, and then used (or reused?) as a bottle for painting in.

    And Marcos, please put me on the waitlist if you decide to sell the bottle! I guess I'm after George and Steven... Or am I after others, as well?  :D

Best to all - Happy Purim to the Jews, Happy Easter to Christians of the 'Western Churches' (Greeks, Coptics  and Armenians celebrate it in a month),
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on March 24, 2016, 07:39:50 pm
Wow Steven

I would not have guessed this in a million years. Still stumps me that there were overlay bottles that early which may actually mean that some of my overlay IP bottles could be much earlier than originally thought

You are amazing indeed!


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 24, 2016, 09:22:52 pm
Still stumps me that there were overlay bottles that early which may actually mean that some of my overlay IP bottles could be much earlier than originally thought



There are always some exceptions,  try to look through your shandong bottles( I know that you have a quite a lot), you might find some surprises there.:)

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 24, 2016, 09:45:43 pm
Dear Pat,

      We know that there has been glass overlay in the snuff bottle and medicine bottle repertoire since Kangxi at least.
It is just that we have gotten into the habit of slotting this type of overlay bottle into 'Shandong School - 1890-1930'
automatically, without taking into account any other option. And ALL the Early Period bottles seemed to be quartz.

     I wrote to Steven that I had a 'BIG doubt' when first he suggested it might be Early Period.
Good I didn't say, "If you are right, I'll eat my hat!"  ;) ;D :-[
Boy do I feel like the last little pic on the previous line.

Best,
Joey



Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 26, 2016, 12:24:26 pm
Hi Steven,

Just curious about Yiru Jushi.

Is he indeed (Aisin Gioro) Hongwu (1743 -1811), grandson of the Kangxi Emperor?

Do you think his calligraphy matches the one on this painting?

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2005/the-arts-of-the-buddha-n08147/lot.58.html (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2005/the-arts-of-the-buddha-n08147/lot.58.html)




Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Steven on March 26, 2016, 04:30:39 pm
Hi Marcos,

I don't think those two are same person, hong wu 's calligraphy is much better quality than the one in bottle. Also think about it, if the bottle was painted by him , he could be in his 60s,  I don't think anybody can paint inside painting at that age ,specailly at that period .

Steven


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 26, 2016, 06:21:06 pm
Dear Marcos,

      During the first 50+ years of Inside Painting (ca.1797 to 1850), it was almost totally a 'Southern' thing, being done in Guangdong Province.
 
      But Yiru Jushi painted in Beijing, ca.1801-1811. Identifying him with the Prince Hongwu is another of a certain dealer's flights of fancy. There is evidence that he had a Manchu name, and thus was a Manchu (Han Chinese did not adopt 'Barbarian' Manchu names).
Most probably he was a Literatus in the capital.

   Best,
Joey
 


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 26, 2016, 07:47:18 pm
This is getting deep !


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 27, 2016, 01:55:11 am


Back to my concern at beginning, is possible the bottle itself can be dated 1808, the answer is possible, The bottle might not made for the inside painted for purpose, could be a medicine bottle as that time, please note the bottle's mouth is quite different with the later shandong bottles which were made for inside painting , the mouth is quite bigger, and I have not seen that big mouth in middle period bottles. its a sign for earlier bottle.



Maybe this is something...

  "Chinese Snuff Bottles, George and Mary Bloch, pg 575. Bonshan was one of Yiru Jushi's art names and appears on another bottle, painted in identical style which has both the signatures, Banshan, and Yiru Jushi.
  Unlike other artists of the early school, such as Gan Xuanwen and Chen Quan, whose rock crystal snuff bottles were made for the purpose, Yiru Jushi appears to have made use of existing old rock crystal snuff bottles, sometimes plain, and sometimes with carved decoration".

Perhaps he did also make use of other "exsisting" earlier bottles as well..


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 27, 2016, 03:55:36 am
Dear George,

      I am coming around to the same thought. "great minds think alike...."   ;D ::)
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 28, 2016, 11:06:15 pm
Hi Joey,

I understood from earlier posts that inside painting originated in Beijing (Jing) school and then spread to the South.

Also, I found an interesting observation here [url][/https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18456/lot/68/url] "The bottles themselves strongly suggest (...) a connection to the court at Beijing."

Regards,

Marcos


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 28, 2016, 11:19:34 pm
Try that link again Marcos...

If you want, just copy and paste the url right into the reply message..


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 28, 2016, 11:20:46 pm
Here we go.. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18456/lot/68/

This is really getting deep !!

Marcos, your going to find yourself with a forum detective badge pretty soon !!

"If Gan followed Yiru jushi, he may have seen this bottle or another like it, perhaps while serving at court in the first decade of the nineteenth century and acquired a similarly shaped bottle. By reversing the chronological order of Gan and Yiru jushi, as we now have, we can expect Gan and his circle to have been influenced by Yiru jushi, and doing a similarly calligraphic work (significantly Gan's only known solely calligraphic work) inside a bottle of the same shape would not be unusual".

"The range of bottles used by Yiru jushi is additional circumstantial evidence that he worked from 1801–1811 rather than from 1861–1871 as previously thought. He obviously painted inside a variety of bottles, gathered from many different sources, unlike Gan Xuanwen who appears to have had a manufacturer make for him the majority of his blanks. In Yiru jushi's works we see a series of imperial shapes, alongside others which might have come from anywhere, and several with carved surfaces indicating that they were not, originally, intended to be painted inside and may even pre-date the art form entirely. Every single one of his extant works is inside a bottle that would be reasonably dated to the period from the mid-eighteenth century to 1811. There is none that obviously postdates 1811. It seems reasonable to assume that had Yiru jushi been painting between 1861 and 1871, he would have used some bottles that more obviously reflect his working period. No such bottles are in evidence. The bottles themselves strongly suggest the earlier period, and a connection to the court at Beijing with the preponderance of probably imperial forms among his works".


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 29, 2016, 06:00:27 am

    For a long time it has been accepted among educated snuff bottle collectors that Inside Painting was inspired by reverse painted works made in Guangzhou (Canton) for the Western (especially German) market, following a mainly German and Bohemian art- and craft- form, and which began to be produced in the last third of the 18th C. in Canton.

   The earliest Inside Painted snuff bottle that we know of, YF Yang has in his private collection. It is a signed and dated Gan Xuanwen bottle, 1797 and dated 2nd year of Jiaqing Emperor.

    The material you are quoting is the BS of a certain dealer, who was 'branding' Yiru Jushi', after he had amassed enough of YRJS bottles to make it worth his while. And thus, Yiru Jushi is now valued like Ding Erzhong, thanks to the dealer who played the same trick with Ding's bottles, after he'd amassed enough of them, and not like Yu Shuyun, who is much rarer (only 8 known, and I have 5. Bloch had the other three), but much cheaper.

   Best,
Joey

    If it was started in the Court, WHY was it started? What was the impetus to paint on the interior surface of a vessel which was then to be filled with material, and which would then be scraped out?


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 29, 2016, 11:36:39 am
Hi George,

Thanks for fixing my link. I didnīt realized I messed up the hmlt tags.

I would love to have a forum detective badge, but as Joey has pointed out to me, there is more things going on than meets the eyes. Indeed, if one is trying to "brand" an artist, creating an Imperial pedigree is quite clever.

Joey raised an interesting point: why would someone paint inside a bottle that eventually would be scraped out? On the other hand, I myself have a Tang Tzi Chuan with snuff stains inside. http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2956.0.html (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2956.0.html)

Was it misused by a Western Barbarian who didnīt know better or was it intended to serve as "impermanent" art (like mandalas)?


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 29, 2016, 04:31:36 pm
Dear Marcos,

      Early Period bottles WERE made to be used. I have a number of Gan Xuanwen, Chen Quan, and even Middle Period bottles (like your Tang Zichuan) that were used. I'm just saying that there is no 'paper trail' to lead back from an early IPSB made in the Court in Beijing, whereas there is such a clear connection to reverse paintings in Canton (Guangzhou).
Best,
Joey


Hi George,

Thanks for fixing my link. I didnīt realized I messed up the hmlt tags.

I would love to have a forum detective badge, but as Joey has pointed out to me, there is more things going on than meets the eyes. Indeed, if one is trying to "brand" an artist, creating an Imperial pedigree is quite clever.

Joey raised an interesting point: why would someone paint inside a bottle that eventually would be scraped out? On the other hand, I myself have a Tang Tzi Chuan with snuff stains inside. http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2956.0.html (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2956.0.html)

Was it misused by a Western Barbarian who didnīt know better or was it intended to serve as "impermanent" art (like mandalas)?


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 29, 2016, 07:07:06 pm
Dear Marcos,

      Early Period bottles WERE made to be used.

Yes.., so does it affect the value Marcos ?  Yes, but on the other side of the coin, there is a special appeal knowing that a bottle was actually used. And no denying it is his works, which are limited..  Add this one to my wish list of bottles that you might part with in the future..  ;)


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 29, 2016, 08:36:08 pm
Dear Marcos,

      I have learned a lot from Y.F. Yang, the 3rd or 4th generation snuff bottle dealer, originally from Beijing, now living in Honolulu.
I asked him about whether I should try to clean the snuff staining on one of my Early Period bottles, a landscape attributed to Gan Xuanwen.
   
     He said to imagine it was a painting on silk which had aged and yellowed with the centuries. So I then asked if I should put snuff in all my IPSBs, to reproduce the effect.  His answer was: "NO! If it is clean, leave it clean. But if it is snuff-stained, make a virtue of necessity and think about it in a different way". Which is very 'Daoist' in thinking for a Chinese Moslem like Y.F. Yang! ;D

     Personally, I do not think it lowers the value, unless there is a lot of damage to the painting from scraping by the snuff spoon.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: George on March 29, 2016, 08:58:30 pm


     Personally, I do not think it lowers the value, unless there is a lot of damage to the painting from scraping by the snuff spoon.
Best,
Joey

Yes, absolutely...


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: marcos on March 30, 2016, 10:12:50 am
Hi Joey,

Now I see what you mean. There is no enough historical evidence linking inside painting to the Court.

Regarding the snuff stains, I personally feel it adds authenticity to the bottles. So I agree with Joey it shouldnīt lower the value unless heavily damaged by scrapping.

Hi George, thanks a lot. You are on the top of the list  :)

Best Regards,

Marcos



Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 30, 2016, 03:11:03 pm
Dear Marcos,

     I agree; George is definitely at the top of the list.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on February 16, 2017, 01:01:04 am
I just discovered this thread again. 

Steven

What detective work!

Marcos

Congrats ! Wow

All

I actually might have to revisit all my IP overlays that I always assumed were 1890s-19xx...


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 16, 2017, 02:09:48 am
Dear Pat,

     I'd love to help, if you are available when next I visit. We could lay all the obviously older Shandong bottles out on a table on a white towel (to cushion and protect them), and try to see which bottles visually go with which others.
 
     Or if you had a native Chinese who was educated in calligraphy, probably he or she would be even more useful to you.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on February 16, 2017, 02:43:40 am
Dear all,
I stumbled on this thread and I must say that, although I am not so "immersed" in the IP bottles field, I found it extremely interesting. Admired by the great job did by Steven, George, and everyone in this thread.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on February 16, 2017, 04:25:04 am
Thanks Joey!  Yes. let's do that, if timing matches. Look forward to it.


Title: Re: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 16, 2017, 09:09:06 am
Dear Pat,
 
    After Steven's 'Eureka' moment (suggesting that Shandong bottles could go back to Early Period), I will be very excited to look at your large collection of Shandong bottles, to see if we can find proof for his thesis.
Best,
Joey