Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

I do not have this in hand yet. But curious if anyone would like to guess from these pics if it likely this is actually an overlay ?  Thinking maybe will end up being an opaque black overlay over opaque base bottle. Does not seem like they would have shaped the base bottle thick enough to do all this carving..

Just not familiar with a bottle like this.

Dear George,
 
    Why is it not just a carved single color glass bottle?  Where is the 'overlay'?
Best,
Joey

That is what I am unsure about.. It just seemed more likely an overlay because of how thick it is..  You may be correct Joey, and may well find once it arrives that it is not an overlay and in fact a solid piece..

If it is an overlay of same color, will I be able to see ( under magnification ? ) where the two meet ? 

I would like very much to find it a solid piece..

Dear George,

       If you mean that there are two shades of black, that of the base bottle and that of the carved layer; sure, you should be able to see where the cutting goes from one shade into the other.
      If however, the glass is all the same shade, it is simply carved monochrome glass. No need to use the word 'overlay', since, in effect there is NO overlaid different glass.

      To me it looks like a carved black Glass bottle imitating  carved Jet.
Best,
Joey

George,

Given how rounded the edges of the design are, this bottle screams to me to be blown molded glass.  It appears that just some of the added details on the surface of the design are ground.  If so this would be a single color, likely imitating jet as Joey indicated.  Also, I suspected this is a modern bottle.

Charll 

Thank you Joey..  I will post again when it arrives, but I think you are correct about the imitating of Jet.  Jet was the one that stood out the most likely for me too..

Dear Charll,

     I think you are correct on both counts. It's funny, because George used the term 'Overlay', I got hung up on that issue, and just tried to deal with it. But it definitely looks mold blown, and most probably newer rather than older.

     But still an interesting example.
Best,
Joey

Dear Charll,
if the bottle is molded, how it has been made the mold in your opinion? I mean, which is the way it has been made:
a) the mold has been carved, or
b) the mold has been made by doing the matrix of a carved bottle
Which is the more probable way in your opinion?
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

      I got the impression that Charll thinks it is modern, in which case it is not hard to make a modern mold in plaster, or in extruded plastic even.  I also question its age.
Joey

Dear Joey,
my question is meant to understand the process of making the mold for this bottle, regardless the material. One can directly carve the mold, i.e. the negative mold of the final bottle, and use it directly to mold the bottles. Or one can carve a bottle, than make the mold onto it, what we call as "calco". It seems that the English as usual is a very unspecific language, both the mold and the calco has the same name in English.
So, how was made the mold for this bottle? A directly carved mold or the “calco” of a carved bottle?
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

      You got me!  ;D ::)
Best,
Joey

Giovanni,

If it is indeed a molded bottle, I not sure there is any way verify how the mold was made unless you were there.  I would presume it is by using a carve bottle or a carved form, than making the mold onto it. 


Charll

Dear Charll,
thank you. Let me explain why I did ask so. First point: if George’s bottle is molded, the mold has been made onto a carved bottle. There is no doubt about this, in my opinion, because a carved mold will never produce a bottle with the features seen here. If we look at the pictures shown by George, in particular at the recessed areas of the bottle, we see that those areas has all the features of the carved ones. Imagine the mold of that bottle, i.e. the negative version of what we see in the pictures. Imagine in your mind the raised areas of the mold, corresponding to the recessed areas of the bottle: should looks like that? It is impossible. A raised area will never show those shapes, clearly related to a deep carving, and not to a raised protrusion. So, following my thoughts, if the bottle has been made by mold, the mold in turn has been made onto a bottle. But then look at the deep carvings of the bottle, and the shape. I believe that it is not possible to made such a mold in less than four parts, besides that of the base. If not, it is not possible to remove the mold after the use, unless destroying it. That means that after molding, there would be many tracks of the mold joints that needs to be smoothed. Many tracks on a complicated carving. Hmmm… a quite complicate job. Not impossible, though.
All in all, there is another possibility. That the seller didn’t know about jet and he thought that bottle was glass while indeed it is jet. If so, not a bad deal, hein George?
I have not seen a single bubble on the surface of the bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

       What about a solid carved clay model, and then numerous latex molds made from it?  And the glass  then pumped in. One cuts away the latex mold, and voila! No joins, and it looks carved.
 
       Of course, if it really is Jet, George has lucked out! G-D Willing.
Best,
Joey

I am having an off couple of days, and not online a whole lot..

Such interesting possibilities you guys..  I think the few, and almost microscopic white spots ( best seen on base ) would exclude Jet ? 

Dear George,

      To me they look like dirt, and not inclusions. I'm hoping it is Jet. That would be a real coup for you.
Best,
Joey

Good to here you like what you see Joey..

Lots of really interesting ideas about how this one was made..  Without having it in hand, am still leaning towards your thought it may be imitating.. I do have some interesting comparisons to share when it arrives that seem to support this Early carved and not molded.

Giovanni,

Attached is an illustration of the blown mold process, and  examples of a 20th century Czech and French sent bottle.  The same process applies to snuff bottles.

Charll

Dear Joey,
the glass, to be pumped in, must be in fluid state, which menas that it is at a very high temperature, about 1000 degrees Celsius. No latex, nor any sintetic substance, can stand that temperature. To obtain a model with no joints, the technique is that of "lost wax", which is that of the bronze torso that you bought in Milan. But in that case after the molding the mold must be destroyed, which makes the resulting object as an unique model.
Dear Charll, what I meant is just that the depth of carving and the fact that it is a round bottle and not a flat one like the examples that you have shown, are telling us that it is not possible that George's bottle has been amde with a simple two halves mold. I believe that no less than three vertical parts are necessary, but most probably four.
More I look at the pictures and more I think that it is not glass. Note that the bottle has the same uniform surface matt appearance. Usually on glass bottles we see some difference in polishing between the exposed areas and the recessed ones.
Giovanni

Dear Joey,
If it is indeed jet, George will know immediately he receives it and has a chance to handle it.
Jet is so much lighter than glass, and relatively warm to the touch.
Fingers crossed!

Dear Giovanni,
Thank you for the information on the molding process.

Regards,
Tom

Giovanni,

I agree with your above observation, and I was letting George's 'Subject Header' influence my perspective with an assumption he knew it was glass. 

Charll

Dear Giovanni,

      I didn't realize that the temp. has to be so high. I thought that it could be like the silicon gloves and even cupcake baking forms they have, good up to 400 C. in the oven. Good I'm not making glass.  ;D
Best,
Joey

Well, the bottle arrived.. In an effort to try and find what is "wrong" ( I am trying Joey !  :D ) with the bottle, truth be told it is all looking "right". Both that it is likely Jet, and also 18th. 

I have tried to burn some pieces scraped with a dental tool from inside, but I just can't get it to burn. I don't seem to have anything around the house that I can use as a red hot element of any kind..

Before I commit to the reasons gathered "so far" supporting Jet and 18th, looking for one more comparison pic...

Tom....

Do you or anyone else with a Jet bottle have the ability to magnify the surface to about x200 ?

Wish I could back off this microscopes non adjustable x200 a bit.

I can not find a microscopic image online for the surfaces of either Jet or Lignite.

Might have found what I was hoping for..   

Thinking may go ahead and move this bottle to Tom's, Jet/Lingite Thread..

Here in part 5 of 6 pages (http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/scientific-american/sup4/On-The-Origin-And-Structure-Of-Coal-Part-5.html) they are talking about the composition of coal from Arthropitus Gallica formation.  I would expect the structure of Jet/Lingite under magnification to be the same as compressed wood as shown in coal..   

FIG. 8. - Arthropitus gallica, St. Etienne; transverse section through the carbonized part.

"In the region, b, of Fig. 6, the ligneous elements have undergone an evident change of form, and the walls have been broken. This region, already filled by petrifying salts, but not completely hardened, has not been able to resist, as the region, a, an external pressure, and has become more or less misshapened. As for the not yet mineralized external portion, c, it has completely given way under the pressure, the walls of the different organic elements have come into contact, the calcareous or other salts have been expressed, and this region exhibits the aspect of ordinary coal, while at the same time preserving a little more hardness on account of the small quantity of mineral salts that has remained in them despite the compression".

"From the standpoint of carbonization there seems to us but little difference between the organic elements that occupy the region, a, and those that occupy b. If the former had not been filled with hardened petrifying matter, they would have been compressed and flattened like those of region c, and would have given a compact and brilliant coal, having very likely before petrifaction reached the same degree of carbonization as the latter. The layer of coal in contact with the carbonized or silicified part of the specimens is due, then, to a compression of the organic elements already chemically carbonized, but in which the mineral matter was not yet hardened and was able to escape".

With a little luck, we may be on track to be able and gauge the differences between the composition of "hard", and "soft" Jet with the above info..  More on that later.. 

This Jet bottle at x200 on the right, and the organic coal microscopic drawing at about x300/400 to the left for comparison. 

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fcomposition1_zps1ydgwltx.jpg&hash=df539a393fc4d9e9dbd2b35904294419)

Congratulations George!!

A great find.:)

Thank you brother Steven !

Dear George,
I am glad that I was right in my suspicion that this was a jet bottle. But I think that you are too optimist in thinking that it is 18th century. I don't see the "hand" of that period there. But I may be wrong, what does others think about this?
Giovanni

Actually, after researching and putting together a description for auction, I am with you in leaning towards 19th on this one... Early to Mid... Maybe closer to Mid..

Thank you Giovanni  :)  

Dear George,

     It is wonderful news that you bought an early  - mid 19th c Jet bottle.
Congratulations!
Joey

Thank you Joey !