Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Gem, Stone, Rock and Fossil => Topic started by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on February 29, 2016, 09:45:35 am



Title: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on February 29, 2016, 09:45:35 am
Dear all,
this is a stone bottle that I bought last week at an Antique fair. I have been captured by the high contrast between the black even, compact stone and the white crystals. The black area is completely opaque, the light doesn’t comes through, as you can see in the last picture where there is a LED lighting the inside of the bottle. The black is so pure black that I thought that the bottle could have been artificially colored, but in such case I think that we should see the black also among the crevices of the crystals. Do you think that it is possible to dye the compact stone alone? And what kind of stone could this be?
Thank you in advance. The bottle is 61 mm high, well hollowed and with concave lip, but I don’t think that it is antique.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: YT on February 29, 2016, 11:06:30 am
Dear Giovanni,

I have seen black jadeite that is completely opaque and white jadeite that looks like that. Just cannot explain the purple glow of your LED light is supposedly white?

Still, my congratulations for a rare bottle. Thumbs up!!

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on February 29, 2016, 12:28:43 pm
Dear YT,
thank you. The purple tone is coming from the LED. The crystals of the stone are pure white. I don't think that it is jadeite, because of the crystals and because of the black and the white thin lines bordering the crystals area, see the detail here below. That is more typical of agate I think, but I am not sure. 
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: YT on February 29, 2016, 01:50:27 pm
Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for the clarification. I have not seen a combination of both before but guess that there is such combinations.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Wattana on March 01, 2016, 12:18:18 am
Dear Giovanni,

An interesting bottle! I have not seen one with this striking combination before. My guess is that it is made from two varieties of quartz, which fused together under immense heat and pressure millions of years ago.

The black part is crypto-crystalline quartz. I agree that it is unusual for this to be completely opaque, but it does sometimes occur. See, for example, jasper, which is chemically identical to quartz (silicone dioxide - SiO2).
The white part is clearly crystalline quartz. Patches of it are often found on agate snuff bottles.

The shape of your bottle is very elegant, but almost certainly modern.

Regards,
Tom     


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 01, 2016, 12:52:30 am
Dear Tom,
thank you. You are right about the crystal, I too think that it is quartz. What I don't know is on which type of stones the quartz crystals can develop. For sure agate and calcedony for what I know. Do you think that it is possible that the black is artificial? I hate artificially colored agates. What I don't know is if it is possible to dye the agate alone without affecting the quartz crystals.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Wattana on March 01, 2016, 02:42:45 am
Dear Giovanni,

You misunderstood me. I am suggesting that the black stone is perfectly natural.  Agate, chalcedony, jasper and quartz are all varieties of silicone dioxide (SiO2). Jasper, which comes in many different colours, is completely opaque.  Using the word 'quartz' here is confusing, because there is a type of very dark smoky quartz, which looks black until you shine a light through it. That is a crystalline variety of SiO2. In the case of your bottle, it is NOT crystalline - therefore opaque. So, for want of a better description, we could call your stone 'black jasper'.

Regards,
Tom


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 01, 2016, 07:31:11 am
Thank you very much dear Tom. I was really afraid that the black could be somehow dyed. If natural, then I really like the striking contrast between the two areas of the bottle, and although not antique I am happy with this bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 01, 2016, 08:55:31 am
Dear Giovanni,

    It is striking, but I'm not sure about age, whether old or new. I will defer to Tom on this one, till I see it 'live'.

    Best,
Joey


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 01, 2016, 01:47:36 pm
Thank you dear Joey,
you surely will see it, among other bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: rpfstoneman on March 01, 2016, 01:53:31 pm
Giovanni,

In my opinion your black and white bottle is outstanding as a result of the contrast.  Given the white crystalline inclusion I would think it is fairly well hollowed, but not overly so, and definitely not a "floater".  I too would  
surmise it to be a newer contemporary bottle.

Given that I'm attracted to this type of stone, I checked my mineralogy references to see if I could find a similar colored black stone with minute white banding with a crystal core or center.  I did find such a illustration, and as I suspected, it is a naturally colored black agate.  On the web there is a lot of illustrations of black agate presently coming out of Brazil.  

Agate and onyx are both varieties of layered chalcedony that differ only in the form of the bands: agate has curved bands and onyx has parallel bands. The colors of its bands range from white to almost every color (save some shades, such as purple or blue).

Thanks for sharing this lovely bottle.  Charll


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 01, 2016, 04:40:06 pm
Dear Charll,
thank you very much, after your comment I did search for black agate and found the following page, where we can see exactly this stone, coming from China:
http://www.stonecontact.com/products-168933/black-agate-stone
Here below a picture from that page.
The bottle is very well hollowed, much than was I expected when I saw it. It does not float but it is close to that. I did a rough measure and I believe that the walls has a thickness of about 3 mm. I think that it is very dangerous to go below that thickness because of the crystals, which are of course not compact due to the crystalline structure. But I too am convinced that it is not old, because I do not see any wear or scratches on it.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: George on March 01, 2016, 05:51:24 pm
It could be Onyx that is color treated by boiling with a sugar solution then sulphuric acid. Since this treatment isn't very deep any attempt to remove any part of the treated surface would result in removing that treated surface completely.

Black agate and Yemeni agate is liked in Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and Middle East due to religious or spiritual or myths or whatever.

Some facts about the black agates which are sold in these markets via Gemological Institute of Pakistan revealed that it is either black glass which is also sold in the name of Black tourmaline and also a Dyed brownish type agate which looks black agate in ordinary light.

I read that most of this stuff comes from china in cut and polished form to Iran and Pakistan. Then Iran and Pakistan dealers spread this stuff in different markets.





Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: richy88 on March 01, 2016, 09:33:40 pm
Hi Giovanni

Thanks for sharing this interesting bottle.

I have a similar one that I labelled "The Penguin".

Enjoy.


Richard


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Wattana on March 01, 2016, 10:11:09 pm
Hi Richard,

I knew I had seen a bottle similar to Giovanni's, but could not remember where. Consequently I did not mention it.

Now I remember where...!

Regards,
Tom


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 02, 2016, 01:38:39 am
Dear Richard,

     GOOD ONE! Well named.
Best,
Joey



Hi Giovanni

Thanks for sharing this interesting bottle.

I have a similar one that I labelled "The Penguin".

Enjoy.


Richard


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 02, 2016, 02:14:25 am
Dear George,
have you seen the Chinese site (my link above) where they sell this type of natural stone in large quantity? After seeing that, I have no more doubt that the bottle is natural and not dyed.
Dear Richard, nice bottle, thank you. Is it well hollowed? I prefer my one because of the thin white layer that contour the crystals zone.
That of the name is a good idea, I will call my one “The smiling mouth”.
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: George on March 02, 2016, 12:23:34 pm
Dear George,
have you seen the Chinese site (my link above) where they sell this type of natural stone in large quantity? After seeing that, I have no more doubt that the bottle is natural and not dyed.


I am not a gemologist, so need a little help, but nothing about this material looks natural to me. It looks like a conglomerate of agate pieces compacted together..


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 02, 2016, 12:53:07 pm
Dear George, I believe that it is just a pile of agate slices.
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: George on March 02, 2016, 09:00:48 pm
Dear George, I believe that it is just a pile of agate slices.
Giovanni


Like similar material they make counter tops with.. https://www.aeonstonetile.com/stones/semi-precious/


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 03, 2016, 01:19:57 am
Dear George,
I am not sure that I am understanding what you mean. Those shown by you are compacted stones, but what is it meant by “compacted”? It means that they are stones bind together by a binding medium, I mean each one is an individual stone. To be clear, the white crystals are not compacted with the black stone, that is a natural process. It is not possible that in my bottle the white crystals has been somehow joined to a black stone, if this is what you meant.
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: George on March 03, 2016, 03:45:17 am
Dear George,
I am not sure that I am understanding what you mean. Those shown by you are compacted stones, but what is it meant by “compacted”? It means that they are stones bind together by a binding medium, I mean each one is an individual stone. To be clear, the white crystals are not compacted with the black stone, that is a natural process. It is not possible that in my bottle the white crystals has been somehow joined to a black stone, if this is what you meant.
Giovanni


Yes, that was what I meant, and agree that the white crystals can't be compacted to the black agate.


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 03, 2016, 01:44:06 pm
Dear George,
there is a misunderstanding. I said, to be clear, that my whole bottle comes from a single piece of stone, in other words it is not possible to take crystals of quanrtz and implement them into another compact stone. And did ask if that is what you meant by saying that it has been compacted.
You said: "Yes, that was what I meant, and agree that the white crystals can't be compacted to the black agate.", which does not make sense. One of us is not understanding right.
But there is a bad new here: a friend did send me the picture of a bottle that is on sale on ebay. That color is not natural in my opinion, it must be dyed. If so, it means that it is possible to dye the compact stone without affetting the crystals! Too bad!
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: George on March 03, 2016, 04:19:48 pm
Yes, I think did get mixed up about this... My fault and sorry to have been confusing..

I do think there is a pretty good chance yours is dyed using sugar solution followed by sulphuric acid method. It looks like the solution started to seep into the crystal along the edges where it meets the black.


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Wattana on March 03, 2016, 08:52:28 pm

I do think there is a pretty good chance yours is dyed using sugar solution followed by sulphuric acid method. It looks like the solution started to seep into the crystal along the edges where it meets the black.


George,

That is very interesting. When artificially dyed in this way, how deep does the colour go? I am assuming it does not sink much beyond the surface.

Tom


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: George on March 03, 2016, 09:21:01 pm

I do think there is a pretty good chance yours is dyed using sugar solution followed by sulphuric acid method. It looks like the solution started to seep into the crystal along the edges where it meets the black.


George,

That is very interesting. When artificially dyed in this way, how deep does the colour go? I am assuming it does not sink much beyond the surface.

Tom

Yes, ever so slightly below the surface.. I have never tried, but imagine that even a light abrasive sanding could remove it..


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: ileney on March 03, 2016, 10:53:20 pm
I tend to doubt the carbon acid method of dying mentioned was used. I am a little familiar with that carbon "sugar cooking" method as used for dying Andamooka opal matrix black, but have not seen it used for quartz and doubt it would work for hard stones. In the case of Andamooka matrix opal, it is cooked with acid and sugar solution, sometimes under vacuum, penetrates the sandstone-like matrix and dyes it, leaving the harder crystal fire opal fragments dye free. The color then stands out more against the black background. However, the dye only penetrates the sandstone-like matrix because that part is so porous to start with. The stone may have to undergo the treatment several times, and again after cutting, depending on how far the sugar penetrated. Finished stones are often also then treated with opticon to harden the now-blackened matrix because otherwise it might be too porous to take a high shine.

I DO suspect this snuff bottle is dyed, but by another method. There IS genuine black and white agate coming out of several places, including Ankara Turkey. Botswana agate can also come in shades of black, grey and white, so there is no way to know for absolute sure, but I feel this looks an awful lot like the dyed stuff I see coming out of China. A huge amount of stone coming out of China right now is dyed, in all different colors but especially black and white. It is presented as undyed, and often looks absolutely authentic (but it isn't.) Much of it is dyed onyx, but some is dyed chalcedony, agate and quartz as well. The dye DOES appear to penetrate through the stone and often only affects some bands in a stone and not others. (There is also lab grown quartz and minerals coming out of China in absurd quantities, but they sometimes forget and leave telltale marks on the bottoms of the crystals where they grew so people have learned to recognize them after a while.) 

Here is an example of some stones where they are NOT trying to hide that they have been dyed but are upfront about it, perhaps due to the unnatural color used.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/44-55Cts-EXCELLENT-FANTASTIC-DESIGNER-ONYX-AGATE-PAIR-OVAL-CABOCHON-GEMSTONE-/231855775593?hash=item35fbae5f69:g:yPIAAOSwT~9Wj4M~

Just to give one example of how good the dye is, I bought a piece of ridiculously cheap "chrysoprase" and even when placed side by side with a piece of chrysoprase I myself had just cut from the Australian rough and knew was authentic, I could not tell the difference in color, reflection, texture, or anything else at first. It was only by holding it up to the light and seeing that there were none of the customary internal characteristics of actual chrysoprase that convinced me it was (masterfully) dyed onyx. I also have purchased inexpensive banded onyx slabs, carnelian cabs and quartz "druzy" geode slices where only portions of the stone are dyed and the rest left untouched; presumably certain bands are more porous than others in the same stone. 40 years ago, my dad bought wood alcohol based stone dyes from Grieger's to sometimes treat his crazy lace agate or other stones with. They came as a powder and my dad mixed them with wood alcohol. If I recall correctly, the dye was heated, and the dye only stuck to some bands and avoided others, making for very colorful stones. However, this may be a new kind of dye that penetrates the stones even more.




Title: Re: A true black and white bottle - proof in the pictures
Post by: ileney on March 04, 2016, 07:10:52 am
This is another example of the China material, but I don't know for sure that it is dyed though I believe that to be the case. It is possible that it is all a new natural stone that was found in the past few years. I just tend to doubt it because there is such quantity of it and because there are other colors, not just black. Look up black white druzy geode on ebay and you'll see hundreds of similar examples, some with banding, others with no banding but just the stark color demarkation.



Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on March 05, 2016, 02:23:41 am
Dear Ileney,
thank you very much for your interesting contribution. AS I said before I don't like dyed stones, mainly because the colors looks too much artificial. In case of black, it is a bit different.
Kind regards
Giovanni


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: ileney on March 05, 2016, 06:36:35 pm
You are welcome Giovanni! I actually have bought some of the dyed stones myself because some are very attractive. I just tell people I believe them to be dyed agate or onyx, as opposed to chrysoprase or naturally colored agate. (I also don't know for sure that the dye color will last as long as natural color, but probably it will.)


Title: Re: A true black and white bottle
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 05, 2016, 07:15:24 pm
Dear Ilene,

      Thank you for your contribution in this thread. It was very interesting and informative.
Best Wishes,
Joey

Dear Giovanni,

      It is a very attractive example. Thank you for posting it.
Best Wishes,
Joey