Title: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 19, 2015, 01:43:37 am Hello All
I dreaded to post this but I feel I must do so in the interest of Honesty Pin recently published an amazing bottle by Da Yong. I must admit I was captivated by it and offered my top price (based on my retirement earnings) of RMB20K I eventually got back an email from Da Yong himself saying that bottom price is RMB 50K OK - all fair and well. But then I was prompted to dig out my recent work on cataloging all my bottles and out popped this ..... (see 3 x attachments ) Da Yong - as far as I can ascertain - was part of THE biggest scam of all : the Liu Jianghua scam whereby - as verified by some very reliable sources in Singapore - about 2,500 (YES ... OVER 2,500 !) bottles "attributed" to "Master" Liu Jianghua were sold to some very gullible Singapore collectors There's even a whole book of Liu Jianghua's "bottles" which I dutifully bought and scanned and included in my Data Base I bought the book from a senior Forum member in Singapore who I am sure (CERTAIN ) sold it to me in all honesty and good faith at the time Take a look at the attached pics and tell me if I am wrong I truly hate to write this because all my dealings with Da Yong have been super-friendly and his home, which I visited several times, was always stacked floor-to-ceiling with art books But Zhang Limin (late of the Qin School - now back in Hengshui so I heard on the grapevine) told me that he often painted student - quality bottles and passed them to Da Yong who then signed off on them I have several such Zhang Limin "actual" unsigned / fake-signed bottles in my collection and they are the works of a true genius before he grew older and more stale. (May he soon resurrect himself ! And I do pray so !) Oh so sad..... One of my last - ever bottle purchases was from Da Yong in person who literally "challenged" me to see that he could really paint Chinese landscapes . I went to his home and he showed me a bewildering number of different bottles - all sorts of styles and media . I should have been suspicious there and then but I wasn't and fell for a truly beautiful Chinese landscape in abstract colors which I will post separately on the Forum So you can imagine my shock - nay horror - when I stumbled by pure chance in an art book on what I am certain was the original painting from which it was obviously copied - see the pic which I will post later . And therefore most probably not even painted by Da Yong himself..... ! Aaaaaaaaaagh !!!! Cheers Peter PS : And to make it even worse I now realize that I endorsed DY in the final sentences of my Part 2 ICSBS article Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 19, 2015, 01:51:54 am Hi again All
Tell me if this bottle is not a direct copy of the original painting above ( by Zhang Daqian) Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 19, 2015, 02:04:40 am Hi again
Here's my official catalog of the DY bottle My collection tops out at 330 bottles, the last of which "P330" was painted by Song Yiming who - if ever there was true modern genius and who has never scammed (and whose bottles have always been fairly and very reasonably priced ) - He is indeed that person. SYM - it so seems - went though a stale patch while he was living in Xian as part of the budding new Qin School. Far be it from me to offer any reliable opinion on the ins and outs of VMIPB artists and their careers (but I did hear that the tipping point for Yi Ming was too much painting and too little beer, but having drunk and peed together with Zhang Tieshan I don't think that can be the whole story) If it did not affect the whole lifetime careers (and therefore lifetime family income) of such great artists I would not make such light of such matters But I am deadly serious : Song Yiming was the first and last artist whose works I have diligently collected. He is a true genius Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: AntPeople on September 19, 2015, 05:55:03 am Hi Peter :
I love that DaYong copied Zhang DaQian bottle a lot........ if you in any way would like to let go the bottle at RMB20,000.... Please let me know.... Thanks a lot Pin Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 19, 2015, 07:25:33 am Hi Joey and Pin,
I don't have a problem with the fact that DY (or one his students) apparently copied that bottle from the Zhang Daqian original. It was pure one in a zillion chance that I stumbled on the original painting Indeed, as Joey correctly wrote : from time immemorial Chinese (IPB) artists have paid homage to great artists' works by copying them. I was just so pissed off that DY never told me that it was a copy of a great work by another artist (and most probably DY did not even paint / copy-paint it himself !) - having boasted that he also could paint Chinese landscapes Sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I really got on so well with DY personally and drank so many happy beers with him. Anyway, what's done is done There are some much more famous artists who have been caught red-handed signing off on their students' bottles, as many collectors in S'Pore know for a fact Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 19, 2015, 11:07:00 am Hi Joey
We have clashed swords on more than one occasion, but on this I feel we are united I truly love that bottle which I bought from DY that last day I ever was in Hengshui in May 2014. I looked at it in every possible lighting condition for over one hour thinking it was a genuine DY work of real true Chinese Landscape art . But now I find out that the A-side was a copy (and probably not even copied by DY himself) The B-side is definitely not in the same league as the A-side. Anyone with any taste can see that . So it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth .... so sorry to say But when I contrast that bottle with the best of the best Song Yiming bottles which I collected over the years - you saw the goldfish ! - then I do know that I did actually buy some real gems along the way , including one his recent masterpieces c/o the Qin School I have some reason to believe that another "Grand Master" has been signng off on his wife's bottles I cannot prove it - but I suspect it All so very sad We need to keep this thread in the private section of the Forum for obvious reasons My allegations may be totally unfounded - and indeed I wish that they may be so Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: YT on September 19, 2015, 09:21:04 pm Dear Peter,
I believe you have made your point. Please spare some thoughts for people who were cheated and feels more than you will imagine. The world is round, what goes around comes around! Cheers, YT Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 20, 2015, 06:09:36 am Hi YT, Pin, Joey , All
Yes the world is indeed round and I went round the world (and even posted a RMB 1 K prize in Hengshui ) to finally find out was / is "Spiderman " (It was actually Zhang Limin and who in turn accidentally who spilled the beans to me on DY , although I never suspected the true depth of the scam(s) until just recently ) And what happens in Los Vegas stays in Los Vegas - well sort of because signing off on students' works goes far back into the very roots of the Jing School I paid US$475 for what David Osborne sold me in total good faith as a genuine DY classic western Landscape. When I showed the actual bottle to Da Yong he was totally mystified and denied he ever painted it But yet it was signed off by WXS to David Osborne and then to me - all in good faith ! ! There are some huge scams out there The most serious was the LSB scam - just ask any Nanyang Group collector to verify Most of them were totally fooled. LSB signed off on countless student bottles starting in about 2000 . Since when LSB has - apparently lost all "face" in S'Pore The single biggest scam was / is the Liu Jianghua aka Da Yong scam for which I personally hold several smoking guns (2,500 bottles fraudulently sold to some very gullible S'pore collectors ..... I could not believe that totally crazy number until I treble checked it ) Pin - so sorry to say : the bottles are beautiful but they are (almost certainly) not painted by DY himself and they are CERTAINLY not worth RMB 50 K ! Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: AntPeople on September 20, 2015, 08:28:24 pm Hi Peter :
Thanks for your advise..... But maybe what I can only say is......... Keep Calm and Welcome to the Chinese Culture ;D Cheers and have a beer. Pin Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 21, 2015, 03:08:57 am Hi Pin
Yes indeed I must keep calm..... I have news of even bigger scams that I dare not even mention (because I cannot prove them, but the Nanyang Collectors Group and Yeo know of them) So very, VERY sad that the word "China" is now so often associated with the words "fake" and "scam" But when I finally developed a passion for Chinese art I eventually found out I was in many cases being scammed ! I am so ashamed What more can I say ? I advise that you openly challenge DY on whether he really painted those bottles I wish to move this entire thread to the public section - if George can so can arrange If George can not so arrange I will re-post everything in the public section I am so ashamed - particularly as I signed off on DY as a bona fide modern genius in the very last pages of my ICSBS article Part 2 Mea Culpa And so stupid and so gullible Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: AntPeople on September 21, 2015, 08:13:45 am Hi Peter :
I must first say that I do not write long email or reply...(and maybe most of us Chinese don't).... and you will most likely had realized that Chinese don't express ourselves like most of the Caucasian do......... So before I start to attempt to write a longer than normal reply to you.... please pardon me on any mistake that I will make........ 1) First of all, I would say that you are a lucky person to come into snuff bottle collection... lucky bec that, In am opinion, the "scams" and fake in VMIP snuff bottle area is comparatively much less to many other area of Chinese art or even other media in snuff bottle....... imaging if you had decided on collection Chinese painting or tea pot or even porcelain..... most likely you will say that all Chinese are crooks after half a year or murdered some artist along the way..... I brought my first porcelain tea pot when I was 16 years old, that's when I started and at a certain point in time, decided that collecting Chinese art is too much BS for me, so I stopped for a good 10 years before starting again on something Chinese, snuff bottle...... Do I lose my interest in Chinese art when I was not collecting, No I didnt.... I just go to the museum and admire them... art without BS... even if there is, its not my problem.....So when I decide to start again, I am fully aware of what I am getting into. 2) Secondly, try to understand Chinese and our art in a different way...... we appreciate/collect something "sometime" in "the sprit of" someone great.... let me give you an example... Wang XiZhi... what you see in museum are most likely not his work, (most of the real work was burned by that last emperor of Tang dynasty when the Song army won over the country) but a replicate from Tang Dynasty, but we still acknowledge it in "his sprit" and that the work is the best "representation" of one of the most accomplished calligraphy artist in Chinese history.... do all Chinese go to the museum and shout at the top of the voice that all this is a scam or bullshit....... We don't.... lets see Mao ZiTong calligraphy..... they are respected by most Chinese.... but in the pure artistic value... is it really that fantastic ?..... Don't know, at least I don't think so... but we respect his calligraphy as the work from a man that had achieved what he set forth for and achieved it and more also a man that liberated our race from the Japanese occupation.... (no discussion about political system please). 3) Closer to heart... IP bottles.... are you not familiar with Ye family copying ZLY work...(and I can bet you that you can name many people that do that, Chen Zhong San, Yan Yu Tian... the list goes on)....... do we still collect them......YES we do.... Do you want to dig up their grave and tell them that they are part of a big "scam" ?? Even the bottles of MXS.... who really painted the bottle? Ma Kuang Jia or his brother or his father or his nephew ? That goes with the Ye family too....which generation of Ye is the real artist of that bottle !!!! Of course we are more critical about modern artist...all of us want to get the real thing....... but remember, modern or in their grave... they are just human being.... Does the finishing touch = paint by them ? How much or how less the finishing touch should there be ??? Artists are in constant dilemma, paint everything themselves from scratch and every bottle need to be innovative and creative... then they will only have a few bottles to put on the market, will that small amt of bottles be noticed and the make them famous... chances are very little, almost zero !! bec even art gallery wont sign them on.... too troublesome and expensive to market someone will that little amt of work........ Just do the finishing touch ? then they risk being the center point of a scam..... What do they do.......I don't know, I am just lucky that its not my problem and I only need to choose if I want admire their work OR NOT...... 4) Lets tune back the clock a few years and see where is an artist like Zhang Yong etc...... who are they? Apprentice.... how much do they earn ? next to nothing compared to people that has a good education in the first world..... DO they need food, home and had hopes for their children like all of us in the first world.... YES they do....... Do they have fear that they themselves, no matter how hard they work, cant provide for their family..... YES they do..... Even I do!!! although if you do the math, I should be able at least to make sure that my daughter will have chicken rice for the rest of her life if I die tomorrow..... Some STUPID and UNFOUNDED worries that I have.... SURE and Yes I agree......... but I am a father and I still hope that she will never lose her smile bec of money and materialistic matters......STUPID, SURE !!! Take a look at this : (https://pix1.wikialbums.com/136823716022161236787724541532422521172321347897897197/2477328823246725524322133082681692461377928199/Photos/13087302836703000073281.jpg) The original picture is here : (https://pix1.wikialbums.com/136823716022161236787724541532422521172321347897897197/2477328823246725524322133082681692461377928199/Photos/13081602661344000093370.jpg) How much is this bottle ??? which takes probably 2-3 weeks of an apprentice not so skillful paint brush to complete compared to the master .......ZY give it to me free as my girls baby gift, but also said that its between RMB1000-RMB2000 if I want to paint more bottles ....Do you think, if you are a apprentice (and most likely, he or she is going to spend a good 3-5 years to be able to paint like this) you will have fear in your eyes and in your soul if you only get RMB1000-2000 for a 2 weeks job, IF, at all, lucky you, someone ever call you to paint something ?........ DO you think that if his or her baby is crying for MILK and I offer him another RMB100, he will write "painted by Zhou Le Yuan" at the back of the bottle ?.......... or, I just call him to leave the back of the bottle empty and I myself will try to put some ugly calligraphy by myself and say its painted by me and resell the bottle under my name to an innocent person on the street....... 4) "Scam" or not scam..... the Nanyang group knows it more than all of us....... Do you think they need any one of us to help them on discovering scams in VMIP ?.... gullible??.... hard to believe....... collectively (even individually).. their experiences, expertise, knowledge on the subject, time spend and ability to communicate with any IP artist in China must be way above any individual can do ....... why are they keeping quiet ? IMHO, its bec they are willing to give everyone a 2nd chance and let bygone be bygone....... My father has been telling me since I was a kid that "IF you have the luxury of forgiving someone, then just forgive him" when I was young... my answer was... Damm it, why should I?........ when I am almost 50, I realized his wisdom... 5) I use to buy ZY bottle at RMB 20,000.... then the last one, maybe few a mths ago, he increase to RMB 28,000..... then suddenly, and again he increase his price to RMB 50,000....... I was too shocked and tot that, how can he do such things to me !!! So I did write to him and this is what he said.... "I am already close to 40 years old.... if I am going to paint like what I paint, its going to be another 5 years or so before my eye sight and my hand starts to fail me increasingly....... Its my only chance to make more money before age catches up and I will be struggling to make ends need later in life. My only skill is in painting snuff bottles, I do not have any other skill that I can rely on once my prime is over."........ I wished him good luck and said that I will still buy bottles from him if I can afford..... He ask me if I can help him to see if theres a market in Singapore and beyond...... I agree to help him in my spare time as my father do have friend that opens an art gallery...... therefore the 3 bottles that he send me....... 6) Peter... Last but not least, I need to tell you that you have ZERO chance of getting the bottle at your asking price....... bec if ZY had said that that particular bottle is RMB 20,000 or even 25,000...... I would have brought it myself immediately and post the bottle as MY LASTES PURCHASE from Zhang Yong...... My point of view and my longest reply ......... Cheers and remember the beer Pin Title: Da Yong Scam ? (I wish it was not so but it is so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 21, 2015, 09:25:09 am Hi Pin
Thank you so much for your reply and I am glad that this is now out in the public area , where it needs to be discussed and debated Yes I know all about the Ye family and my first ever antique bottle turned out to be painted by a ZLY student so it was "fake ZLY" work, (I sold it back the dealer after WXS in person declared it not a genuine ZLY) I was actually at the opening of the Jing School exhibition last weekend - see separate thread - and of course half the bottles there were by the Ye family (but as to which Ye - who really knows ? ) I love and admire Chinese art and the art of copying . My single biggest collection of bottles are all by Li Shouxun which are commissioned copies of a water color abstract Chinese landscape artist : Zhang Yumao - see my ICSBS article part 2 in the sidebar ! I commissioned 12 bottles at US$ 2,000 each = US$24,000 spread over 6 years because every bottle took LSX a couple of months to paint both sides . I do actually own two of Zhang Yumao's original paintings which cost me about US$5,000 each twenty years ago When I first started seriously collecting VMIPBs I was shocked ( in fact - disgusted) at the ridiculously low prices that top artists were being paid at that time. I have worked in China for 30 years so RMB4,000 for a masterpiece ? That's less than a receptionist earned in my previous company's China offices per month Joey saw that totally mind blasting Song Yiming goldfish bottle which I hesitated about for almost two years two years from a shop in BJ near my office until I knocked it down from RMB15,600 to a paltry RMB6,500 . The natural crystal bottle alone must have cost SYM most of that . I am still ashamed at that purchase, which is one reason why I try promote SYM's works. He is one artist whom I know does not scam and his fame will live forever (His pen name is Da Cheng) So - for right or for wrong - I personally campaigned for prices to be raised (RMB4,000 10 years ago was US$500 which was my top budget price at that time in the mid 1990s ) I advocated US$2,000 = RMB 16,000 and was prepared to pay that much - and very often did pay that much except for the rare bargains I bought in various shops which did not realize the true value of the bottles they had (hence my two micro calligraphy bottles by Yi Ding/ Nie Lei which I picked for a song and a dance - and much admired by Joey - but I had to buy a fake-signed "Wang Baichuan" bottle as part of the deal ) I also accidentally bought quite a lot of definite fakes (I mean fake signing off ) which nonetheless are actually quite beautiful . So sad that I will never actually find out who the real artists were. But in so doing I actually have also put our dearest friends Jill Guo Jie and Li Hui out of their VMIPB business because US$2,000 will now buy a fully provenanced Middle Period bottle (my single only Middle Period bottle by Yan Yutian I bought for less than US$2K from a top HK dealer - who coincidentally was at BJ last week ) I now understand that Jill and Li Hui mainly deal in antique bottles which they know well enough about to buy at US auctions on-line and then re-sell in China at some fair profit (I do know their net profit margins on VMIPBs and they are wafer thin ) Fact is that Western buyers will not pay much more than US$ 1- 2 K for a work by a modern artist because 99% of western collectors have no real eye for art As far as I can ascertain the majority of VMIPBs by famous living artists are now sold to Chinese collectors who are well aware of the various scams and thus avoid them, even though they have very deep pockets and can easily afford to pay prices well into the US$ several tens of thousands for genuine bottles by genuine top-ranked artists. I even saw that some top artists have been buying back their bottles and then re-selling them at 10x the prices There's one tiny VMIPB now on sale in HK at CAC for HK$1 million - presumably on the off chance that a super rich but ignorant tourist may buy it "because if the price tag is HK$1 million it must be genuine" ! 99% (OK 90% !) of Western collectors only buy for investment value and so they only trust legitimate dealers like Clare and Michael Chu who can vouch for provenance - which means ultimate re-sale value, thus true investment value. How else did Hugh Moss become so rich that he can bid US$ millions to buy back the bottles that he once bought for George Bloch ? When my humble collection was only 12 bottles Clare Chu visited my home and exclaimed that I was THE first collector she ever met who bought for pure LOVE. Since then I consistently bought for LOVE, and in so doing accidentally bought a lot of bottles painted by Zhang Limin which Da Yong had carelessly signed of as Jiang Hua ( and once even as Liu Jiang Hua !) I called DY this evening and challenged him on the great S'Pore Liu Jianghua scam - and he confessed I even have a "Da Yong" bottle bought via David Osborne for US$475.50 which DY sold to WXS and WXS signed off on it as a genuine DY bottle Would you care to buy it from me @ US$475 ? " A genuine DY" Postage free ! When I found out that Chinese Arts and Crafts in HK took a 66% commission on any bottle they sold me I went back and paid the artists in Hengshui a fair price in recompense When I discovered one Grand Master ahead of time I paid him what for me was a vast fortune for half a dozen of his best bottles and he was astounded at my price which was far more than he ever expected. Now even just one of his worst bottles is on sale at WXS's Hengshui shop at more than I paid for half a dozen of his very best bottles (and WXS shop prices are the real thing - no hidden mark ups there) Did I buy for investment ? Did I cheat him ? Would I ever re-sell any of the bottles for profit ? NO to all three questions In fact the only bottle I ever resold was a WXS bottle which was up for action at the first Bloch Bonhams sale. Everyone in the auction room knew I wanted to own just one real WXS bottle as a kind of tribute the Greatest of Greatest Masters so no-one bid in the auction room . There was only one other bidder who was on-line from Singapore and finally I won - I think because I was wildly waving my bidding paddle and so whoever was handling the on-line bidding told the Singapore customer that "there's crazy western man here who won't give up" Imagine my total surprise to find out much later that it was in fact my best friend Yeo Konghoo who was bidding against me! Yeo has taught me more than anyone about IPBs ( and the SCAMs) When I saw Yeo's amazing collection of WXS bottles (one for every year that WXS painted) I offered my bottle back to him at exactly what I paid Bonhams because I knew it rightfully belonged in his collection, not mine. It later turned out to be one of the most important of WXS bottles ever painted and was featured in a major publication about WXS's epic works . I don't regret for a single moment selling it to Yeo for zero profit even though I could have asked twice or three times the price - which I'm sure he could happily have paid . Because I value my friendship with Yeo beyond all possible words and the bottle does rightly belong in his collection, not mine Yes - I feel deeply for the artists in China and their low incomes. I have tried to support several of them and my 2 x ICSBS articles will, I hope, help in a small way to promote REAL art inside a bottle But I tell you that those bottles DY entrusted to you were never painted by him I visited DY's home a couple of times - it is HUGE - a 6,000 sq foot palace (and that's just one of his homes) Meanwhile Hu Xiaoran's "studio" is his garage in the basement of his block with only dim artificial light and Sun Honglin's studio is a dusty desk inside a dusty window in an even dustier apartment I do like DY and we will always be friends - but please don't plead that his eyesight is failing at mid 40s Some of the most expert and minutely detailed bottles I ever bought were by Li Shouxun who is much older than DY I am not sure if you ever got a copy of my DB but if not then you really do need to buy a copy US$ 500 and I will even throw in the fake DY bottle which I now hate ! Hard words - yes ! But we need hard words on these issues The last bottle you posted - the black and white "Huang Shan" landscape was painted by a junior student : a copy of one of Sun Honglin's special style - and not even a good copy at that. I once bought a much better copy of Sun Honglin's style for RMB 360 at WXS's shop in Hengshui RMB 50,000 ? More like RMB 500 (of which most would be the actual blank bottle) Last time I visited Hengshui in May 2014 I saw ( and even photographed) 3 different artists' copies of Fu Guoshun's signature works. Each bottle was signed with the real artist's name - all Ji School junior artists that I never heard of before - so there was no attempt to pass off the bottles as really by FGS (The only real FGS bottle was on private sale in the VIP showroom at 10 x the price of the best knock off copy-styles - it was actually the highest price bottle in the whole private show room - about US$ 30,000) The real tragedy of all this is not scams per se . It's the fact that no-one will ever trust a DY signed bottle again for all his life - or at least till this thread is long since forgotten in cyberspace - or until he assumes a new pen name I have counted up to 6 pen names for some artists. Even WXS's name is not his real name ! But cyberspace has nasty habit of living forever and I now deeply regret the fact that I endorsed DY in the closing words of my part 2 ICSBS article - now in the side bar Cheers Peter Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 21, 2015, 09:25:58 pm Hello Pin and All
After I called DY the other evening he has sent me four new bottle pics All the bottles are very good (I especially like #3 with the lightning strike) and I would happily pay RMB10 - 20 K for it IF I KNEW WHO THE REAL ARTIST IS But one does not have to be even the slightest art appreciator to see that no artist could ever paint such four different styles (nor to have photographed them so carelessly) Every bottle pic I ever received from a real artist was meticulously photographed When I bought the Liu Jianghua catalog via Richard (who I am 100% certain sold it in good faith) I was immediately puzzled at the six or seven different painting styles in the book and I asked myself how anyone could paint so many different styles in such a short period of time ??!! Then I did a double take and realized that THAT is my bottle and also THAT one and THAT ONE ..... !!! Even some of the bottle shapes were so unusual that I have never seen anything like them outside the Liu Jianghua / DY scam : I have mirror image bottle shapes on my display shelves and I have never seen any other artist paint in those strangely shaped bottles before nor since What happened was that I had accidentally bought what were obviously earlier versions of the bottles DY sold to Liu Jianghua as his "fake" works. Most of them I now realize were painted by Zhang Limin in his junior student years (and they are all very good bottles - just so tragic that they are now attributed to this Liu Jianghua man - whoever he is - does he even exist ? ) The loop closes firmly (chain of evidence) because I bought all the bottles a short while after the Liu Jianghua book was published and the shop owner in SH who sold me the bottles told me she had very close dealings with DY, from whom she bought most of her really good bottles which she sold privately to serious collectors like me YES - DY has just sent me 4 pics of very good bottles But NO he surely did not paint a single one of them I do have a couple of real DY bottles which I bought via Jill Guo Jie : his real style is actually rather bland but very distinctive and personal What a waste of talent that he has betrayed his own name Cheers Peter PS : I can and will forgive and forget. Forgiveness is the single most important word in the world. But this thread will / must linger on in cyberspace for ever :( Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Steven on September 21, 2015, 10:18:10 pm Hi Pin,
You have a lovely baby girl, she is just so cute. A painted bottle is a great gift for the baby I think.:) I might contact one of the artist to have any kids painted.:) Did you carefully check the portrait bottle? somehow I feel too flat for the painting, please forgive me if I am wrong, I think its questionable if the bottle is really painted, it might be a photo enhanced bottle( could be partially painted) , the bottom of the portrait won't be look that clean, also some of the detail on the cloth are not necessary painted if its a real painted portrait. I just wish that Da Yong won't give out a photo enhanced bottle as a gift, I wish my assumption is totally wrong. Steven Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: George on September 21, 2015, 11:36:21 pm Hi Pin, You have a lovely baby girl, she is just so cute. A painted bottle is a great gift for the baby I think.:) I might contact one of the artist to have any kids painted.:) Did you carefully check the portrait bottle? somehow I feel too flat for the painting, please forgive me if I am wrong, I think its questionable if the bottle is really painted, it might be a photo enhanced bottle( could be partially painted) , the bottom of the portrait won't be look that clean, also some of the detail on the cloth are not necessary painted if its a real painted portrait. I just wish that Da Yong won't give out a photo enhanced bottle as a gift, I wish my assumption is totally wrong. Steven Amazing... I thought the exact same thing Steven... I looked real close, and kept thinking it looked like a photo.. The only thing is, that the babies smile is different.. So unless Pin sent more than one photo, that part threw me off.. I hesitated to say anything as did not want to disappoint Pin.. Better macro pics of the image would help a lot.. Good eye Steven... Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on September 22, 2015, 12:07:39 am Hi Pin,
I don't think that your beautiful baby's face is a photo- enhanced copy Normally photo - enhanced fake inside painted bottles seem to have a dark border along the bottom See the thread on this subject elsewhere VMIPB artists can paint with incredible accuracy - just check the cat pic of my own Persian cat in part 2 of my article which was done by a senior Li Shouxun student Actually the only way to test for a photo-enhanced bottle is to take a digital pic of part of the bottle in close-up macro mode and then blow up the pic many times in your computer ( 32 X or more) . If it's a photo fake the pic will go fuzzy whereas a real IPB will show the minute brush strokes (and actually if you look closely it's not an EXACT copy - look round the neck areas ) And where is DY's signature, date and tribute to you ? If an artist gifts a portrait to anyone he personally signs and dates the work and addresses the bottle to the recipient (OK - my cat bottle was signed on the side - one could hardly accept that an artist would address a bottle to a cat "in person" ) There's a huge thread on this whole topic, most of which I wrote several years ago I attach my own photo-fake example and a real copy painting taken from the original oil painting Strangely the photo fake has left to right reversed - which is obviously not the case with your bottle Commission portraits like this cost only a couple of RMB thousands even today with elevated prices Cheers Peter PS - Correction to P213 (A) - it does NOT pretend to be a Sun Honglin bottle but Wu Weitao obviously copied the bottle from SHL's catalog ! Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Steven on September 22, 2015, 09:26:41 am Hi Peter,
I am still not convinced that its real painted bottle, when you see the painting technique was improved a lot during these years, so was the photo enhanced technique. I have no doubt the young artist can paint very very accurate, But they should know which part should be accurate , and which part not necessary. Like the Cat bottle you have, AS WSJ know exactly which part is the focus, so the face of the cat was painted brighter than the original photo, which stands out a lot more. The pattern on the baby's cloth are not that important, so normally the artist won't paint so accurate, some pattern (like the red dots on the edge) will not be painted, but it was copied exactly at the right spot. Which led me suspect it could be a photo enhanced one. -Pin, I really didn't try to disappoint you by any means, and I wish some details of the painting can prove that I was wrong. Steven Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 22, 2015, 09:44:06 am Dear Pin,
First and most important: You have a beautiful baby! Mazal Tov! (Congratulations) Second, I agree with what you wrote. All this is part of Chinese Art & Culture. Best to you and all, as we start the Day of Atonement. At the risk of offending Peter (or should I write, "Although I will offend Peter...", Peter?), I want to thank everyone on the Forum for their friendship and support, and I want to apologise if I offended in any way over the past year, by commission or omission (even you, Peter!). Best to all, Joey Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: AntPeople on September 22, 2015, 10:18:01 am Hi Steven :
Thanks !!!! She is my precious, my teacher and my student !!! ;D The bottle is painted... Look thru it with my 12X and do see all the paint strokes .... Actually with the bottle in hand, you will be able to see that the larger area and also the major lines like the eyelid are painted with a 2X I do also hope that the painting can be a little bit more 3D...the face is a little broader than the photo too.....but at least I can recognize my baby on the bottle....not a little monkey....hahaha ::) Pin Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: AntPeople on September 22, 2015, 10:28:05 am Will take some macro photo of the bottle this weekend if my baby give me permission to do so....
Cheers and thanks to all Pin Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: Steven on September 22, 2015, 11:32:07 am Thanks Pin for your info!
I am so relieved that you approved that I was wrong.:) Steven Title: Re: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so) Post by: George on September 22, 2015, 11:35:32 am I am so relieved that you approved that I was wrong.:) Steven Me too ! |