Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Dear all,

Please help to comment.

Carved agate peanuts and bats, 19th century.

Cheers,
YT

Hi YT,

Thank you for sharing! A very unique and nice bottle.

I don't have much knowledge on stone bottles, but If let me vote, I will vote the bottle 20th century. Please forgive me if I am guessing wrong.

Steven

Well we know two bats is twice the blessings, and just found that peanuts symbolize long life and many sons. Also called the fruit of longevity..

Never seen a peanut carved motif before..  I am inclined to agree with Steven's 20th century date.. Might have to go so far as saying middle to late 20th..

Interesting motif !

Dear Steven and George,

Thanks for your input. Just putting a bottle out that I don't quite understand either. (and our forum is a bit quiet).

It is carved deep into the body in high relief so as to make the peanuts appear in 3D. Christies Paris place the dating at 19th.

Cheers,
YT

Really glad you posted it YT.. Not only because it is an interesting bottle, but like you say.. Been pretty quiet so nice to have one to talk about !

I was so far off on the dating YT.. !

One thing that I should have asked for before jumping out with a 20th dating is close up pics for the motif.  I did not think it possible because the rest of the bottle did not strike me as 19th, but maybe we can figure out if the motif was carved with hand tools compared to power tools.  It is hard to tell, but parts of it look like maybe hand tooled. 

Dear George,

Thank you. I don't know how to date agate so glad to have comments on it.

Cheers,
YT

I almost do not want to comment, as I still have a very hard time telling the difference.. But, my best guess is that I see high speed rotary tooled marks within the recessed parts of the peanuts.

LOL!! I can't comment too.

I am guessing there are 3 seeds in that peanut which is quite rare :P

Cheers,
YT

YT, unless Christies has some information on provenance to show when this bottle was purchased, I'm not sure they could accurately pin down a dating.  Now granted hardstones is one of my weakest areas to ever be making a comment, but my first impression was that your bottle was a 20th century piece also.  I drew this conclusion based on the following:

1) Form.  The bottle has a narrowed oval form typical of what we see in many later and new bottles. The shoulders off the neck and the body above the foot are very round and is at a steep angle off the neck and foot.  I've notice that older bottles of this shape type tend to be less so and their bodies take on more of a rounded rectangle form. 

2) High relief.  The degree of height on the carved relief is atypical on older bottles made for use and tends to occur on bottles made for export and/or as cabinet pieces.

3) Under carving. The way the peanuts are lifted off the bottle by under or caving back underneath the design is a later process in manufacture and design to increase the decorative effect at the expense of functionally.  Such carvings create catch and snag points with removal from pouches or clothing.         

I have seen a number of peanut motif bottles in displays and in various auction and collection catalogs.  All with age as I recall have lower reliefs in the design and the designs taper down to the body of the bottle with no undercutting. 

I'm just providing some food for thought based on past observations rather than on referenced literature and could be wrong on the later dating.  Regardless, it is a very lovely bottle that many of us would cherish.

Charll


 

Dear Charll,

I'm perfectly fine with the dating be it 19th or 20th. Moreover Christies has a guarantee to their product for 5 years.

This bottle is quite unique if you compare to the many you have stated and handled.
Just happy to have peanuts to feed my two elephant (bottles). ;D

Cheers,
YT

Dear YT,

I have to agree with all of Charll's points. (He must be clairvoyant, because I cover these points in my "guide to dating hardstone bottles", which is a project in progress, and not shown to anyone yet!)

If I was to ignore the bats and peanuts, and look at this as a plain bottle, I would date it to mid-20th century onwards. The carving provides added clues. Deep undercutting, and the perfectly circular indentations on the peanut shells are both characteristics which point towards the use of modern high speed drills. A look at the interior hollowing would be needed before concluding the dating. As it stands, I would say it has a 20% chance or less of being 19th century.

Tom

Yes, all great points from Charll..

I did not know and will now remember about the under carving..

Thanks Charll..

I would definitely agree with Steven, Charll and Tom. The wellknown examples have a bottle carved as a Chinese date, with peanuts carved on top.
Best,
Joey

Dear all,

as far as I know, many "classic" peanuts bottles present a carving in pretty high relief with some undercarving (see attached example). Where is the difference other than in the kind of stone?

Regards

Georges

Georges,

Thanks for the fine example and the counter point.  Would you happen to know the reported age/dating of the example you provided.  My comments were based only on trends that I have observed with older vs newer bottles.   

Charll 

By the way...

Hello Georges !

Dear all,
the bottle I illustrated seems to belong to a well known group of chalcedony called 'peanut agate' bottles. They are normally pebble-shaped, striated to represent jujube, with the ochre-coloured inclusions carved as peanuts (-> rebus "soon a noble son will be born").
There are examples in many published collections e.g. Au Han, Harry Ross = Moss 1971, Bloch, Claire Lawrence, Neal&Frances Hunter, White Orchid, etc.
The dating varies: Daoguang (Sothebys), 1760-1850 (Kleiner), 1780-1850 (Hall).
I'm tempted to date my example to the first half of the 19th century. It has the particularity that the reverse side shows a chiling in the same high relief.
Regards
Georges

Dear Georges,

Thanks for your post. I agree that peanuts are usually shown stuck on a jujube as background. But I think this is the first time I have ever seen a peanut-chilong combination on jujube. Very interesting!

Does anyone know how this combination might read as a 'rebus'?

Regards,
Tom

Hi Georges,

Very nice example!! Thank you for sharing!

-Tom,

 The Peanut and Chilong combination is rare, Peanut (花生）, Chilong(螭龙）together means 生意欣荣（wish you have Jubilant business）

Steven

Here is a carved wood with same motif.

Thanks Steven,

I need one of those...!!!

Tom

Very nice bottle!
Georges

Steven,

Was that wood carving you posted a bottle? If so, I want one even more....!

Tom

Dear all,

Just came back from a short working trip to Hanoi Vietnam.

Since we are on peanuts and stone, I will like to share one in my collection for your comments as well.

Inn Bok

( continuation - picture file size )

from Inn Bok

Wonderful bottle and example Inn Bok !

Cute bottle Inn Bok. How tall is it?

Tom

A real beauty!

Georges

I had one of the 'jujube/peanut' examples from 1982 to 1991, and dated it Daoguang period (1820-1850).
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Thanks Joe, this coincides with my appreciation.
Best
Georges

Dear Georges,
     I don't really know many people who dated these to earlier than Daoguang.
Happy to share information. That is the key to a successful culture, like in Israel, and other democratic regimes. Only failing regimes/cultures try to censor information. The so-called 'palestinian authority', Iran, Saudi Arabia, and IS come to mind...  ;D
    But yours is truly rare, and interesting, with the qi-long dragon added to the mix.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Dear Joey,

I agree with you totally. However, Moss, Hall and Kleiner open the span into the 18th century...

Best

Georges

Dear Georges,
    Sorry to correct you, but Moss and Hall projected back into the 18th C., to improve their appeal to collectors. The late Robert Kleiner, a dear friend (I flew specially to London from Israel in late Jan.2014 for his funeral Mass), was kissing a-- to the other two, because he did not want to make waves. He did not deal well with aggro. Which makes one wonder why he first became a solicitor and barrister...  ;D
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
   Joey

Tom,
The bottle is 55 mm high, 45mm wide and 38mm thick. Mouth dia. 6 mm.
I was attracted to the color of the material and the workmanship. Bought it in Jan 2008 in
Singapore.
Any guess as to the age ?

Inn Bok

Dear all,

Finally gotten a Peanut carved on a date on a wood stand. ;D
Thumbprint Agate and very well hollowed.

Cheers,
YT

Which date, YT? I didn't find one in the catalogue of Christie's South Kensington.

Georges

Interesting bottle YT. Looks to be very nicely carved, and polished.

Thank you for sharing it !

Dear YT,
 
     That is just like the one I had!
But mine had a brown-stained ivory stem-shaped stopper...
I'd date this to Daoguang, easily.
Best,
Joey

Dear Georges,

The sale and lot number can be seen on the sticker which my colleague forgot to remove while taking photos.

Dear George,

Thank you and happy to share.

Dear Joey,

Thank you and as always, appreciate the extra details.

Cheers,
YT

Nice acquisition YT! This type of bottle is often not too well hollowed out.
Thanks for sharing.

Best,
Tom

Lovely bottles to behold ! Congratulations !

Inn Bok

Hi Everyone,

I've enjoyed reading thru this post, and will add yet one more to the fine bottles already exhibited.  It measures 2 1/16" and has a glass top.  Because of the thickness of the peanuts and bat relief carving, should I guess this to be a 20th century bottle? Also, the fact that the jujube striations stop short of the carvings? It was purchased in 1961.  Thanks for any comments!

Cheers,
Rube. 

PS- Steven, the wooden example is fabulous!

Dear Rube,

     Classic peanut agate bottle! Wonderful.
Best,
Joey

Thanks Joey! 

Too bad my grandfather didn't give it to my grandmother earlier than on their 25th wedding anniversary.  Maybe she would have
given birth to a son at some point, instead of three girls! ;)

Cheers,

Rube.

Dear Rube,

That is a gorgeous bottle, one of the best example I have seen on this motif. The craving is fabulous .

Congratulations

Steven

Dear Rube,

I agree with others - this is a fine example for this type.

I have always been fascinated by the look of jujube, but have never come across this fruit "in the flesh". So I was happy to notice them on a supermarket shelf in Bangkok last weekend. Well, what a disappointment. I was expecting them to look something like a brown sticky date. The fruit turns out to be pale green with a dry smooth-textured skin. Where do the striations come from? And why? Obviously some kind of preserve.

Tom 

Steven and Tom,
Thanks for your comments, and Tom that’s hilarious! Thanks for sharing, as I too, have wondered.
Cheers,
Rube

Hi Rube,

Lovely bottle, the mutts nuts !

Regards, Adrian.

Thanks Adrian,
Lunchtime!
Cheers,
Rube

Dear Adrian,

      ?
Best,
Joey

Dear Rube,

     Was that a non sequitur ?
Best,
Joey

My goodness, the carving is wonderful. Who knew peanuts could look so beautiful?

Ileney,
No peanut allergies allowed on this thread!
Cheers,
Rube

Rube,

No problem of allergies here - it's peanut addiction us collectors have to worry about....   8)

Tom

Dear Tom,
 
     Did you write this on an iPHONE?
And did you originally write 'addiction' instead of 'addition'?
I've noticed, when using my iPAD while traveling, that it changes words on me,
for some strange reason.
When I saw this, I thought of Satay Sauce!  ::) :o ;D   
I need to get to Bangkok.
Best,
Joey

Thanks Joey,

My autospell didn't pick up on that typo! Thankfully human intelligence is still needed....occasionally.   ;D

Best,
Tom

Dear all,

I wonder if you picked up this small news concerning Singapore Airlines intending to withdraw serving peanuts ( and other nuts I believe ) on board because of one incident of a kid having allergy to nuts. So beware if you are carrying any peanut snuff bottle on board the SQ flights  :D :D

Inn Bok