Title: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on June 01, 2011, 11:15:04 pm All
Last night found a misplaced list of painters/artists that I either have bottles of, considered buying, or was interested to see more items of. In either case, the painters were good enough for me to like the bottles or peeked my interest for more. I have cross-referenced all on my list to Peter's DB and these are the missing names/aliases. I dont have the correct Chinese characters for them as these were translated in Pinyin for me. Any information obviously would be helpful in many ways! Thanks a lot! Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on June 02, 2011, 01:04:38 am I recognize many of these names..
This first seller actually includes many of these artists names within the descriptions of her bottles. The other two below do not include the artists name within the description. dfc_greatdealer (http://shop.ebay.com/dfc_greatdealer/m.html?_nkw=inside+painted&_sacat=0&_odkw=&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3911.c0.m270.l1313) is a seller I mentioned a while back.. As she sells some of the fake bottles.. Actually, all three of these sellers offer the fake bottles. She ( dfc_greatdealer ) is the one I mentioned having a shop in Shanghai. Never would tell me where the shop is at though.. Also am positive that I remember many of the names on your list coming back to me when asking 2002emily (http://shop.ebay.com/2002emily/m.html?_nkw=inside&_sacat=0&_odkw=&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3911.c0.m270.l1313) who the artists are. Same with the-knowing-eye (http://shop.ebay.com/the-knowing-eye/m.html?_nkw=Inside&_sacat=0&_odkw=&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3911.c0.m270.l1313). I recognize many of these names being sent to me as artists of bottles I inquired about. I have always found it interesting that both of these last two sellers describe their painted bottles exactly the same.. Not "inside painted", or even "reverse painted", but both describe them as "inside-drawing." It always made me think that these two ebay stores are some how connected. I have bought bottles in the past from all three of these sellers. It has been a few years ago, but found that bottles priced in the 100.00 range were pretty darn nice, and always was pleased when they arrived. What I am not absolutely sure of, but think I recall, is some of these names may also have been student ( at the time ) artists from the Xisan acadamy. I use to purchase them from a Canadian fellow who traveled to China and would meet with Xisan artists. Purchased directly from them for resale to members of what was back then called the Snuff Bottle Club. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on June 02, 2011, 01:21:20 am Wow George. This is amazing. These names on my list I refer to have been compiled from real dealers/shops throughout China over the last 4-5 years (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Hangzhou, Beijing, Tianjin, Qingdao, Harbin, Dalian), not from these internet folks!! We need to somehow find out if indeed they are/were students and still active, or aliases for other painters, etc. Do you still have some of the contacts? And with the 'Snuff Bottle Club'? Sorry for the many questions, but this is pretty exciting. What is NOT so exciting after going through the links you sent, is that they have fake bottles for sale, so this makes me definetely not want to pursue them, but makes me more interested about the names now.
Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on June 02, 2011, 01:28:28 am Forgot to mention that in many cases the reason why I did not buy the bottles from these folks is that I had already enough birds/fairies/ladies/mythical scenes and started to venture into the landscapes and portraits which are by definition much harder to paint, take longer, and therefore not so plentiful, as well as more expensive as a result. BUT if I did write down the name it meant I liked the painting styles or colors, even if I did not like the subject matter (or prices). I just never found the list back until yesterday. This is an amazing forum .. love it .. even though it seems we are getting fewer to communicate here lately!
Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on June 02, 2011, 02:16:07 am even though it seems we are getting fewer to communicate here lately! This is driving me crazy as well... ! I searched high and low online looking for the Canadian fellow.. Did find a site called The Snuff Bottle Club, but it is not the same as these are students of Li Shouxun. I did email them when I began collecting again a few short months ago, but never heard back from them. Tried a few times too. I can only assume that the Canadian let his site ( snuff bottle club ) domain name lapse and these guys snagged it up ?? No way for me to know.. I stopped considering purchasing from all three of these sellers for just that reason in regards to each offering the fake bottles. I know for a fact all three know they are fake. As I have talked with each. Yet they will not disclose that they are photo faked bottles within the descriptions. Yet I still browse their bottles and it is the bottles painted by some of the artists on your list that always get my attention. My guess is that yes.., these students are still active. I think this because these sellers are always selling bottles painted by these same ( student ? ) atrists. Seems like they would have to have a continious source in order to be selling them all the time. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on June 02, 2011, 03:24:19 am Yes that is my hunch too. I also noticed though that many of the bottles are dated from 2005-2008, not so many newer dates. They may be using up old stock or.... ???
In any case, they for sure can not afford much longer to buy from artists and sell at these prices, if Peter's info is right (which I am sure it is) as well as my info on the base price of glass and manmade crystal. It is very interesting though that NONE of the artists in Peter's database are on sale with these dealers, while ALL of the names above are missing. I agree with your decision to stop buying from people that continue to offer this crap, even if they do have some much nicer bottles listed. And to buy them sight unseen would not be something I would do anyway. This is why i stay away from the internet. I do trade other stuff I find with a guy in Belgium who buys that way, when I am in Europe for work, but this way I can touch, see and feel the bottles. BUT I would love to be able to trace the artist's names I have listed here earlier. Peter, can your contacts help?. For all of your info, these are the ones I am sure that I have already in my collection, but without any info on them. Shi Qing (in Peter's DB but no info, only listed in Singapore IPB books), Li Shan, Tian Yuan, Hui Chun, Bao Yin, Yu Zheng, Jiu Zhou, Han Lin, Jiu Yie, Yun Qing, Qing Shan, He Bao, Jian Guo, Hong Shu. These 15 or so names I find personally very good and appealing (some for animals, landscapes, portraits, people, etc..) Other interesting thing is that these names are not in the dfc_greatdealer listings, or anywhere on ebay, or elsewhere on the net, as far as I can tell, so you could be right that about 25 or so artist names keep popping up on the internet, based on the links you provided (I just went through all their listings, some as low as $30 and as high as $200 lets say. Now, in fairness to the artists and the sellers, some of these are pretty darn nice, but I need to see, hold, feel and touch. THAT is my problem!! Where is our great detective today? ;D Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: richy88 on June 02, 2011, 03:58:47 am Hi George
Let me guess, the Canadian dealer that you are referring, is it Mr David Osborne by any chance? Pat, I am still trying to find out more details about Qiu Shi that you have emailed about. Will keep you posted once I have any information. Regards. Richard Quote This is driving me crazy as well... ! I searched high and low online looking for the Canadian fellow.. Did find a site called "The Snuff Bottle Club" (http://Hengshui), but it is not the same as these are students of Li Shouxun. I did email them when I began collecting again a few short months ago, but never heard back from them. Tried a few times too. I can only assume that the Canadian let his site ( snuff bottle club ) domain name lapse and these guys snagged it up ?? No way for me to know.. I stopped considering purchasing from all three of these sellers for just that reason in regards to each offering the fake bottles. I know for a fact all three know they are fake. As I have talked with each. Yet they will not disclose that they are photo faked bottles within the descriptions. Yet I still browse their bottles and it is the bottles painted by some of the artists on your list that always get my attention. My guess is that yes.., these students are still active. I think this because these sellers are always selling bottles painted by these same ( student ? ) atrists. Seems like they would have to have a continious source in order to be selling them all the time. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on June 02, 2011, 05:52:22 am George
Found your link to the Snuff Bottle Club: http://www.snuffbottleclub.com/ Note the reference to Photo Imprinted bottles! I pasted a pic here to show. Richard Thanks for trying to find out more about Qiu Shi and Shi Qing!! Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on June 02, 2011, 07:35:32 am Yes Richard that is him ! and yes to you as well Pat.. That site is David's site.. !
I am going to have to send an email, and ask what happened or if there still is an actual club with members that he sells to. I did hang on to one single bottle from him. My girlfriend took a liking to it. So never did sell it off with the others. Pat, The process described there with the use of the chemical called Silver Dioxide sounds along the exact same lines as the different liquid light products.. (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,25.msg1293.html#msg1293) From what I have read, only work for leaving the black print/outline that lets pretty much anyone slap a little paint between the lines. Off to drop David an email... :) Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on June 02, 2011, 08:29:01 am Hi Guys
Sorry , been busy trying to earn a living these past 3 days in BJ Wow...lots of new names ! I will send to Li Shouxun to ask if he knows any of them Also need the Chinese characters To be sure, any student of LXS, past or present, is 10% kocher Cheers Peter aka the great detective ( back in HK ) Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on June 02, 2011, 08:33:54 am Hi again
BTW : Shi Qing is ( was) definitely for real, and confirmed has stopped painting His name came up in conversation with one of the Singpaore collectors last weekend in BJ Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on June 02, 2011, 01:24:05 pm David emailed back. He is still offering bottles via a weekly mailing list. So am looking forward to seeing some of what he has.
He mentioned right off about how difficult it is these days to find good prices. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on June 02, 2011, 08:34:44 pm Hi George
Re the price issue, I also found the same in BJ this week. I already posted an example of a bottle I saw in a BJ specialist bottle shop, still unsold after 2 years, now marked up to more than 2 x the 5.2009 price There was another more recently-painted bottle in the shop by a relatively minor arrtist ( Yu Nong = Hou Yingzi) which I quite liked priced at marked price RMB10,000 = USD1,500 . Normally that shop would give me a 70% discount from marked price = RMM3,000, but even when I offered RMB4,000 the owner refused saying that was his buying price so there's no way he could sell at RMB4,000 So I passed on that one :( Cheers Peter ( back in HK ) Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on June 03, 2011, 12:41:27 pm Hi again BTW : Shi Qing is ( was) definitely for real, and confirmed has stopped painting His name came up in conversation with one of the Singpaore collectors last weekend in BJ Cheers Peter David recognized a couple on the list but commented how this can be complicated as most good artists have two totally different names. As an example, Shi Qing is the artist name of Zhang Hai Shen (http://snuffbottlecollector.com/shi_qing/shi_qing_1.htm). I included the link to a Zhang Hai Shen off Bills site thinking it may be this artist ?? Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on June 03, 2011, 05:41:40 pm Hi George,
When I wrote Shi Qing that was a mistake. I meant to write Qiu Shi , whom the S'Pore guys mentioned last weekend in BJ because he has now definitely stopped painting But in fact both these artists were collected by the Singapore Nanyang Group because - I believe - they were senior students of Wang Guanyu , who often went to S'Pore and who was most ardently collected by the Nanyang Group ( you can see that from their book) The first time I ever went to Hengshui, Wang Guanyu sold me a bottle each by Shi Qing and Qiu Shi and very reasonable prices ( about USD 200 each) which seemed to have been gathering dust on his shelves. Both were of course landscapes. I have since been able to confirm that Qiu Shi = Liu Xingkai But I do not know the real name of Shi Qing and I myself have no evidence that he is Zhang Haishen ( although that's not to say he is not ZHS ) . If you have some evidence or testimony please do send to me. I can't find anything on Bill's site for ZHS except a copy of his page in CIPMA . The use of pen names seems to be very common, and some artists have several pen names . Maybe they adopt different pen names at different phases of their creative life . According to my research , even Zhang Guanqing, current master of the Lu Schooln in Shangdong ( Zibo) has two pen names Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on June 03, 2011, 11:36:44 pm Hi again George
Seems we have got 3 important strings entagled here 1. Names of artists not in my DB On this subject I'm pretty sure they are mostly if not all pen names. Pen names are typically 2 characters whereas real Chinese names are usually ( bit not always) 3 characters : Family name ( always 1st) + 2 ( or sometimes 1 or - very rarely :3 given names ) . There are only about 300 Chinese family names Many of the names in Pat's list are Xiao ( = little), Yu, and Mu , which are not Chinese family names to the best of my knowledge, and if you look in my DB you will that all the Xiao, Yu and Mu -named artists are pen-names or suspected pen-names I sent Pat's list of names to Li Shouxun in Hengshui, but he says he has never heard of them ( though without the excact Chinese characters it probably hard for him to identify them ) 2. Dealers, websites etc which sell crap and even fake bottles, of which there's a couple of names below I note 3. Legit dealers, eg David Osborne's Snuff Bottle Club , which is a "pure gold" find I wonder if you can separate these strings under 3 new headings so we can follow each string separately ? Cheers Peter PS : I am a firm believer in networking and Forums, whatever our personal differences and tastes. Hope we got through our first birth pains due to my gaff re asking for a deletion , for which apologies to all . But often after pain comes pleasure, and it seems David's website may eventually lead us to a lot more contacts to serious IPB collectors world-wide. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on June 04, 2011, 12:33:46 am I wonder if you can separate these strings under 3 new headings so we can follow each string separately ? Cheers Peter PS : I am a firm believer in networking and Forums, whatever our personal differences and tastes. Hope we got through our first birth pains due to my gaff re asking for a deletion , for which apologies to all . But often after pain comes pleasure, and it seems David's website may eventually lead us to a lot more contacts to serious IPB collectors world-wide. I hesitate to start a thread/topic that is for the purpose of labeling specific sellers as having poor bottles. I think we would be crossing a line and could find such a topic/thread back fireing on our forum here. Quite honesly as odd as it may first seem... Even those sellers offering poor or even fake bottles can join up here. Open forum ;) I have mentioned sellers that are selling fake bottles.. They know it, and they are sure welcome to join up, discuss, and share with us.. In regards to starting a thread/topic for sellers we each like ? I feel like members here ( especially since we are so few ! ) are being provided with good information as to good reputable sellers via general discussions between us. I especially would rather not promote just any seller.. I tend to believe the forum should support every way we can, "it's own members" that actually show support for, and are actively participating within the forum. I sure do not mind and actually greatly appreciate it when someone mentions a reputable seller, but that does not deserve that seller a promotional spot within the forum.. Not unless they are actively participating here. If you notice, I do promote Bill's site.. Happily so, as he has contributed a great deal here.... I will get a new thread started for Names Of Artists not in your DB for sure if you like .. :) I know this thread has a few off topic replies, but maybe it is still ok as far as discussing the artists not on the DB ?? Just say the word, and I can start a brand new thread, or you can do the same and copy what you like from this one to the new one.. Odds are we will still see a few replies a bit off topic as we are seeing here... Sometimes it just sorta works out that way.. Not to worry even in the slightest about the asking of deletion.. No apologies necessary. Like you I am, and hope others here are as eager to enjoy future pleasures ! As always, I am open to, and grateful for replies on my thoughts. Especially as we continue through the pains and pleasures of our birth :D Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on June 04, 2011, 05:38:13 am Hi George
As ever, your replies show a lot of wisdom, which I, even at 62 going on 63 , still seem to lack wisdom in matters where I am hopelessly passionate [ hope I am not so lacking wisdom in my job ...... but it seems not so since I have been employed by the same company for over 25 years ;) ] I take your point absolutely re dealers and agree 100% . It's wrong to blacklist. Just need to separate the thread re other artists not in my DB as a new thread BTW: a small handful of new artist names have surfaced via Jill ( Guo Jie) 's 2 x 2010 catalogues , and Jill only deals for bona fide good artists . I have yet to update my DB to include these . Heck ... I have a LOT of work to do as soon as I retire ! Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on June 04, 2011, 09:56:00 am Peter
As I indicated in personal email to you, the Chinese characters associated with this list, which I initially started the thread with is long gone and lost. The best I can do is at least at some point take decent pics of the following artist's bottles, which I am sure I have, the other names may pop up as I uncover items, but these stand out in my mind, and have entries in my 'bought items' list: Shi Qing (but this one we have from Singapore group), Li Shan, Tian Yuan, Hui Chun, Bao Yin, Yu Zheng, Jiu Zhou, Han Lin, Jiu Yie, Yun Qing, Qing Shan, He Bao, Jian Guo, Hong Shu, Mu Ke. The above artists would have to have been AT LEAST very decent students or more to peak my interest enough to buy their bottles, OR they are real known artists in your DB operating under new and unknown aliases (likely), OR perhaps just unknown still (possible). Best Regards! Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on August 23, 2011, 10:10:44 pm The best I can do is at least at some point take decent pics of the following artist's bottles I am really getting curious to see if we can possibly connect these pen names to known student artists true names. Going to start keeping an eye out for the pen names on the list, and post pics as they come up. I totally agree that the artwork shown on these bottles are superior to a beginning student. With a little luck maybe we can connect the dots by associating/recognizing the different styles of these to bottles of similar style signed with a true name. As Pat said.. " We need to somehow find out if indeed they are/were students and still active, or aliases for other painters, etc." I have a few to start off with. Each pen name will have it's own thread so additional examples can be added. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on August 24, 2011, 09:29:06 am Hi George, Pat, Bill et al
Sorry that I have been somewhat lax these past 2 weeks on the Forum. I have been dealing with some deep personal stuff ( impending retirement, very aged parents ... ) I had completely forgotten about this thread, and I was suprised to read what I wrote a few months before Sounds like a "different" me Have I "grown up" or "grown down" in that time ? But I do have a theory about these new ( old) names that don't turn up in my DB : My theory is that in roughly every decade some / many IP artists rise to a peak, and then equally fast fade away becuause the effort of doing IP is so intense, and the artist must immediately sell off the work, with little or no photographic record, so it seems the whole effort was totally in vain The pics I get from current top artists are so amateur that it's obvious they have no knowledge how to record their works. But , on the other hand, I have dozens of art book by current canvas artists ( of course, all mountain and waterfall themes) which record perfectly their amazing works Just the last week I bought 2 amazing huge canvas works by one such canvas artist , one to gift to our new Guangzhou office conference room and the other for myself , just because it is so beautiful. Price per pic ? HK$11,000 = about USD 1,500 . But this artist is already quite famous and even has a book published of his works In due time ( please remind me !) I will post a few scans from his book : such amazing piantings ! So these modern IP artists quickly rise to their peak but then equally quickly fade away because no-one appreciated their work : after all - how many SERIOUS MODERN IP collectors are there in the world ? Only a handful, so it seems That's the crying shame : the total NON-recogntion of this Modern art form I now have over 350 of these beaitiful little bottles , some of which are so beautiful that I want cry over them because of the purpose and dedication that went into creating them Much more purpose and dedication than most canvas artiists who can turn out a painting a day based on a sterotyped format Where does that leave me? PLEASE HELP BECAUSE I AM LOST Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 24, 2011, 08:49:49 pm Peter
Stick to your (our) motto. Collect out of love and dont care about what others think. Unknown works from unknown artists that we love is still art, and just maybe it will take several generations for them to become popular. So few artists become popular during their lifetime. It is fair to say that this hobby is like fighting windmills. Too many people are too private about their collecting style in this hobby, and I think this is one of the major reasons that these artists dont get the attention they deserve. Their bottles just dissappear in a big hidden void and are mostly never seen again. In addition, as you indicate, the artists themselves also probably dont do enough personal PR, in order for them to get noticed on a wider scale. On the other hand though... it is fair to say that there were probably at least 50-100 IPB painters at the turn of the century, but even then (and to some extent still now) only Zhou Leyuan, Ma ShaoXuan, Ding Erzhong, Ye Zhongsan get the real respect they deserve. Only recently have artists like Ma Shou Xian, Ma Guang Yu, Yong Shou Tian, Yan Yutian, Chen Zhongsan, Bi Rongjiu, Sun Xingwu, Le San, and some others started to become popular. This is after over 100 years! So I guess we can say that in reality not so much has changed. If you look at some of the bottle pics that George posted from my 'missing' names list, you can see that some of these painters are indeed darn good, great even. The sad part for them and for us, is that we may never find out who they really are/were. And THAT is the fault of the collectors who dont share AND the fault of the artists who dont profile properly or disclose all the pen names they use. So I go back to your (our) premise. Collect out of love.... Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on August 24, 2011, 11:55:21 pm Hi Pat
You are 100% correct ( How come you are ALWAYS so correct ??? Your IQ must be in the 180 range :D ) And indeed, the only reason I ever collect (AND I DO MEAN EVER COLLECT) is just for the pure beauty of these tiny little creations of art But please promise me to send me all the pics of your bottles with artist names , provenance etc on flash memory so I can eventually load it all in the DB Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on August 25, 2011, 12:59:31 am The sad part for them and for us, is that we may never find out who they really are/were. And THAT is the fault of the collectors who dont share AND the fault of the artists who dont profile properly or disclose all the pen names they use. I believe that we may well have some success down the road. Couple of things we know so far.. Just connecting some dots... There are three most popular eBay sellers that offer these pen named bottles. The one and only IP bottle seller that takes the extra effort and time to include the artists name within the descriptions is dfc_greatlander from eBay. This is the seller I am getting the information/images being posted in the other board. Although the Knowing Eye and Cavalierstore will provide them if I send them a message. Can not really keep sending message after message asking about who the artists are though. The later two ( KE, and Cav ) are connected to and purchase from the Antique And Art Company.. Also... Someone along the line is keeping track.. ! What I mean by that is the eBay listings are in almost perfect order. Specific IP artists bottles are not posted randomly throughout their store listings. When you look down the list of bottles within their stores, the bottles are posted in order by artist. Maybe these are being delivered to them "in order" and pre-labeled with the artists name (pen name).. Or this seller is in direct contact with the artists. Some day here shortly, I am going to drop dfc a request asking them to help us with any direct information they must have about these pen names. Seems like if this information was included within in the pen name listings, that it would increase the value of their bottles.. In the end, seems like it would benefit both the seller and the artists. I mentioned earlier that I can not find the link that pretty sure someone posted for the Antique And Art Company. I could not find it via Google. I would like to have a peek at that site. So if someone knows the link.., please post it :) Ok.. I am done rambling.. :) Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on August 25, 2011, 02:53:40 am Hi George
Great input from you, and you are obviously much better informed than me, and much more diligent in your research The GREAT thing about the www is that people like us CAN internetwork so easily (And this Forum, which you founded, is the key) But please add David Osborne as one dealer who can be trusted, even though he auctions direct, not via e-bay I now have 6 - or is it 7 ? - superb bottles ( and all at bargain prices) piling up at his home for hand-carry by the next USA guy who comes to China Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on August 25, 2011, 04:10:50 am But please add David Osborne as one dealer who can be trusted, even though he auctions direct, not via e-bay I really did not mean to suggest that any of the stores mentioned within the forum should not be trusted. They have all sold with positive feedback within eBay for a long time. All sell beautiful bottles. As does David :) The one and only glitch/disappointment we have with some, is that they do also offer the fake photo processed IP's. The only reason I plucked the few eBay sellers out to talk about was just for the purpose of helping us connect the dots between artist/artists signatures. I hope we will find some of these sellers are actually also collectors themselves. Perhaps being collectors themselves, we may find them eager to help connect the dots between pen names, and the true artists names. David does sell some stunning bottles at great prices through his private auctions ! :) Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 25, 2011, 09:43:06 pm George
I am on David's list but have not been in a postion to buy (from him or elsewhere) lately due to some serious tax issues and priorities. Has my list of 'unknowns' ever been presented to David to see if he knows some of them? Or at least their names? Thanks Patriek Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 25, 2011, 10:22:29 pm Peter
After our phone call yesterday, THIS is one of your possible GREAT projects after retirement... to create not only a database, but a online showcase for these incredible artists, especially the ones in 'coming', a portal of sorts. This would serve multiple purposes: 1) create historical record of achievements for each artist, and just as importantly, how hey got their inspiration (original, copy from/off, loosely inspired by etc...) 2) track record of at least where the items went (creates provenance) and what they sold for at creation (very important..) 3) track pen names and when/why/where they were used and for what reason 4) cut out the sharks and middlemen 5) raise awareness and PR... 6) raise the true value of these miniature pieces of art This could be combined with Bill's site, or seperate, and I could certainly contribute my bottles then much faster, something which I dont have the time for at present. You could come photograph them and BB could help with the interpretation and translation (and spend time in paradise doing it;-) Just another crazy idea... P Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: snuffbottlecollector on August 27, 2011, 04:24:28 pm China .... 1 billion people .... 4 billion names. I once thought I would try to write down every name I found associated with an IPB. I soon gave that up with a more realistic goal of trying to document every painter we can find, not every name we can find. Somewhere in this forum or in e-mail I think Peter mentioned a "middle man" who received bottles from various painters and he put names on them. Is my memory correct Peter??
Bill Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 27, 2011, 08:14:59 pm Wooah.. that is certainly a new twist, and a disturbing one. I don't recall having read that. My purpose at least is to try and identify the person who painted the bottles I have, so since pen names and artists were connected (until this latest wrench into the equation), that seemed, yes, very difficult but not necessarily absolutely impossible. Arggghhhh....
Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on August 27, 2011, 09:11:17 pm Hi Pat, Bill, All
PAT : You set me 6 objectives: 1) create historical record of achievements for each artist, and just as importantly, how hey got their inspiration (original, copy from/off, loosely inspired by etc...) 2) track record of at least where the items went (creates provenance) and what they sold for at creation (very important..) 3) track pen names and when/why/where they were used and for what reason I have already tried to achieve 1) by copying all the biographical info I could find into the DB eg from New Look, CIPMA, notes I made myself, info from Bill, David Osborne. Look into the DB on almost any famous artist and you will see the text as well as pics. Beyond that, unless I inteview every artist and get his story, I think that's an impossibly high bar I reckon 2) is impossible, unless a collector ( eg Yeo, Richard) or group of collectors ( eg Nanyang Group) have published a book of their collections. One of the great mysteries for me is where most of the bottles by well-know artists have ended up, but occasionally I stumble on something new, eg I recently got in contact with a USA collector via Davod Osborne who says she has 50 x Suo Zhenhai Re 3) : I can cross-relate pen names with real names, and indeed I have already done this in the DB ( please DO read the introductory word.doc ! ) , but as to why they were used would be very hard to trace except for the handful of VM arrtists whom I have collected and know personally ( eg Hu Xiaoran aka Xiao Quan ) 4) cut out the sharks and middlemen 5) raise awareness and PR... 6) raise the true value of these miniature pieces of art I don't see that doing this would achieve 4) . Where there is food there will always be sharks and middlemen But I do see that doing this would assist to achieve 5) and 6) , and this is precisely why I created the DB ( and I think also why Bill created his website). So if a collector sees a nice bottle for sale by an artist who he/ she has never heard of eg Yun Chuan whom we were discussing yesterday , the collector can quickly check to see what is already known about the artist, previous works etc and decide if the bottle "looks" genuine and worth collecting. IMHO, there have been so many minor artists that have risen and fallen within a very short space of time that their works will never be "valuable" collectors' items, although one may buy them just because they are attractive. ( If you read to the very end of New Look you will see that J.H. Leung mentions several upcoming artists at the end of his collecting period in the late 1980's who have since completely vanished from the scene) But other artists are well worth collecting for "intrinsic / historic " value as well as for aesthetic value I created the DB basically to help up-coming collectors navigate through the IPB jungle . ( And BTW - I still find it's easier to have a DB in toto in one's lap top so one check immediately while in the shop instead of checking on line : that is until download speeds on roaming go much faster) Hope that answers all your points ! :) _____________________________________ There are about 300 Chinese family names, but almost every Chinese person then has two given names , and given that there are probably about 300 words which could be used as suitable given name such as"fortunate" or " strong" or "beautiful" that makes 300 x 300 x 300 = 9 Billion possible combinations ( some Chinese names use the same 2 given names eg Guo Ping Ping ) Pen names usually seem to have only 2 words, and - if I am not mistaken - many of the first names , which would be the family name in a REAL name, are not one of the 300 + official family names ( eg I am almost certain that "Yi" meaning "one " is not a Chinese family name unless it's someone from one of the minority races) So, yes, there is a real jungle of names. But as we gradually link up pen names with real names my guess is that we will come down to about 200 - 300 artists "of note" (among who are about 100 "greats") whose work and reputation will last, and another 700 - 800 of "short-lived flowers" Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 27, 2011, 09:33:47 pm Trust me .. I have i read all your stuff several times. In the end, I think your conclusion hits it right on. I think you are right about the 300 guessed 'numbers' of good to great artists (who knows how many pen names that is, but at least 600, and probably aroiund 1000-1200, if we average 3-4 pen names per artist). If we discount the 'factory' and 'student' grade bottles selling from lets say to $10-$50, there would just not be enough economic livelihood for the artists to make a reasonable living if there were more of them. If you take an average annual output of say 50 good (that is probably on the high side) bottles per person x 300 artists, that makes 15,000 good bottles per year that find their way into the unknown abyss. Given the rising collector scene in China, that is not improbable as it is after all a truly unique and chinese art, and the wealthy chinese have certainly rediscovered it.
Maybe those of us collecting today outside China can count ourselves among the blessed. I have the uncomfortable feeling this art will either not survive (worst case) or become a Cninese playground altogether (best case). Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on August 27, 2011, 10:24:13 pm Hi Pat,
Seems we have some concensus on numbers of artists I reckon that, although a good VM artist in his mid -late 30's can paint a good bottle in one week working non-stop, his actual productivity is only 2 bottles/ month because of planning a bottle, family matters etc. If he can get RMB 4 - 5K net per bottle, which I think is the going rate that makes RMB8-10K / month ( I assume tax free) which is a pretty good salary in Hengshui. That translates to at least double that in terms of salary vs cost of living in the big cities ( maybe almost treble before tax) , which puts him on a par with our top sales staff in China who bring in USD 2 - 4 Million / month sales RMB4-5K net/ bottle means final sale price in the USD1K range via a dealer All this is at current prices , of course. It seems a few years ago the artist's expectation per "good" bottle was much lower Re collecting : I think you have a moot point . I guess 100 years ago IPBs were exclusively the playground of Chinese collectors. But inevitably eventually they become international collectors' items ( even so, many of the "great" Early and Middle school collections are in the hands of Chinese collectors ) Now for the Modern school : again it's the Chinese collectors who have lead the field : J.H. Leung, the S'Pore Nanyang group, and other collectors in Spore like Yeo, Richard etc . And probably a handful of discrete , rich Chinese collectors who have not published their collections yet. Even you and I have strong Chinese connections ! It seems Bill is the "exception that proves the rule" ( if I may say that in the nicest possible way :) ) The VM school may turn out to have a wider audience worldwide because of dealers like Jill. But - as I mentioned before - I recently heard that 80% of all good VM bottles are now sold within China So where does that leave the future of this art-form ? BIG QUESTION ! Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 27, 2011, 10:55:10 pm Only one major difference. You are right that only the rich or influenced could afford the bottles between say 1880 and 1912. But then you forget the loss of fortune and money due to turbulent and poor times between 1912 and 1949 due to internal strife, revolution, war lords, republic, civil war, then the rebuilding, the korean war, the cultural revolution which caused all these artifacts to be sold, leave china or worse, just dissappear and destroyed. I dont think these items from the modern period will undergo these types of influences to leave China again. But of course... who knows, but seems unlikely.
With all the rest I agree... Title: Re: UPDATED: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: George on October 04, 2011, 02:31:56 am I have included the Chinese characters for those I am sure of. The rest is pending. There are 67 names so far. More to follow. Excellent ! Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on October 04, 2011, 04:36:39 am Hi Pat
This is really fantastic. Many thanks :) :) :) :) :) I will get to work in the next few days to add all these names into the DB with a just a simple reference to you in the source coding (I think that "D" is still free : I booked "P" for myself ) Then, when you eventually send me the pics of your bottles, I will mount them into the DB I intend to issue the DB every year free of charge to seriously interested parties. These days memory sticks are so cheap that it's nonesense to talk of USB stick costs - in fact postage is probably the biggest cost For the definition of "seriously" : that means anyone out there on the Forum who is corresponding with me personally and seriously on a regular basis ( regardless of size of collection ) and/ or who has sent me a complete data file of his/her collection to up-load into the DB Just two comments, Pat : 1. Nearly all the names are two characters, which means almost certainly art names. So they may be big time artists using temporary art names during their infancy ( just like Zhang Limin aka Spiderman - it's amazing how much I have learned from following this one particular up-coming artist) Or they may be "flash in a pan" artists : here today / gone tomorrow and thus untraceable 2. In my DB I never ( consciously) gave any preference to my preferred theme of Chinese landscapes. I just downloaded everything I could regardless of theme. And I certainly opened a data file for every artist name I ever came across. So I do hope there's very little bias in that aspect Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 25, 2012, 07:33:09 am I have some Qiu Shi bottles in my collection. I know nothing about him. I saw a mention in this thread. Does anyone know any info about him, OTHER than that he's stopped working?
Thanks for all info, Joey Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on July 25, 2012, 07:57:59 am Hi Joey
Check the DB Qiu Shi = Liu Xinkai Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 25, 2012, 08:05:51 am Thank you Peter. Got it!
Joey Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: OIB on April 23, 2013, 02:48:55 am Peter,
Some time back, I enquired of you if you knew of this VMIP artist by the name of Zhi Li ( see my bottles attached ), in Chinese 志立 and . I just found out his name is Zhang Zhi Li from Heibei , born 1967. He was a student of Li Guang Li ( 李广立 )and Xu Peng Qi ( 许鹏启 ) when he started IP career. I find it interesting that he signed one side with 志立 and the other with 智力. I found his biodata in the brochure " Modern Chinese Snuff Bottles - from Hebei Province ". Regards, Inn Bok Inn Bok Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on April 23, 2013, 03:42:40 am Dear Inn Bok,
Your Zhang Zhili bottle is beautiful. Congratulations! What is its height if I may ask? Best Wishes, Joey Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on April 23, 2013, 07:25:12 am Hi Inn Bok
Zhi Li / Zhang Zhili is a new name to me I have therefore copied your bottle pics and the the bio data you wrote about ZZL into my DB today ( as I always try to do when a mew artist crops up like this) Many thanks for the info and pics From the quality of the painting this is certainly NOT a student : it's junior master standard Do you have a date for when the bottle was painted? Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: OIB on April 29, 2013, 05:28:11 am Hi Joey and Peter,
I must have missed out your thread posted last week. My apology ! Concerning Chang Zhili, please see attached pictures. The bottle i have is 85 mm x 50 mm. and was among the bottles printed in the publicity material. The publication, dated 1992. was published by one of Singapore's coin dealers, M/s Taisei Gallery. So the bottle was completed in or before 1992 ( though not dated on the bottle itself ). The catalogue introduced 49 Hebei IP artists Zhili was a student of Zhang Zeng Lou who held an exhibition of IP bottles at the office of Taisei that year. I went to support ZZL and bought some of his works as well as this bottle by Zhili. I was impressed by Zhili's brush work. I am not sure if he continues to paint IP bottles. Inn Bok Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Peter Bentley 彭达理 on May 07, 2013, 09:39:05 am Hi Inn Bok
Thanks for the updated info and pics . I have added them to my data base BTW it's ZHANG Zhili, not Chang Zhili in Pinyin Cheers Peter Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: OIB on May 07, 2013, 09:41:42 am Thanks Peter. It should be Zhang and not Chang indeed.
Inn Bok. Title: Re: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on May 08, 2013, 07:11:58 am Thank you for the info, Inn Bok.
Best, Joey |