Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles / Early, Middle and Modern Period Bottles 内画鼻烟壶/早期,中期,现代 => Topic started by: YT on January 15, 2015, 10:21:44 pm



Title: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 15, 2015, 10:21:44 pm
Dear all,

Sharing a few YST acquired in the last few months. Thanks to Inn Bok for the story outline. Please feel free to comment.

Inside Painted Glass of flattened rectangular form with rounded shoulder and signed Yong ShouTian. Painting depicts scenes from Romance of the three Kingdom period where Liu Bei(XuanDe) saves Kong Rong in BeiHai.  To the other side is a poem and two lady figures that resemble the story of the Qiao sisters. 53mm Height.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 15, 2015, 10:24:19 pm
Inside Painted amber coloured Glass of flattened rectangular form with rounded shoulder and signed Yong ShouTian. QingYun is praised by the prince(man with a crown) for excelling in all Chinese art. She skillfully mended a cape made of Peacock feather, to the other side is QingYun doing a painting. She is seen seated with her right hand holding a sewing thread and left hand propping up the peacock feather cape. 53mm Height.

Inn Bok, I finally saw the thread :P
Thanks again.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 15, 2015, 10:26:30 pm
Dear all,

Is this by YST? Thank you.

Large Inside painted cobalt blue glass of flat globular form with warriors on horseback in a war scene. Unsigned, painting style and bright colour usage looks to be by Yong ShouTian during early 20th Century. Coral stopper, 80mm height.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on January 15, 2015, 11:07:33 pm
Love them all YT.. Wonderful themes, and yes, my vote for the blue warrior bottle is for YST..

Nice bottles !


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on January 16, 2015, 12:00:08 am
YT...... very nice bottles.... esp the first 2 bottles

I have a theory (just a theory) about YST bottle..... I always think that there's 2 style and actually 2 way YST is written on bottles.... one is 永壽田, another 永受田..... maybe the later YST (永受田) is the descendent or student of the earlier YST....personally, I always think those bottle signed with the first YST (永壽田) are nicer....... also, the later YST (永受田) tend to use bigger bottle at time too.....

Just a tot.........

Pin


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on January 16, 2015, 12:57:10 am
I agree that there are two 'styles' as Pin indicated, and probably 2 painters (or YST changed styles and eyesight got worse...).  The Pinyin style of writing came into vogue much earlier than we all think....


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on January 16, 2015, 01:24:20 am
YT...... very nice bottles.... esp the first 2 bottles

I have a theory (just a theory) about YST bottle..... I always think that there's 2 style and actually 2 way YST is written on bottles.... one is 永壽田, another 永受田..... maybe the later YST (永受田) is the descendent or student of the earlier YST....personally, I always think those bottle signed with the first YST (永壽田) are nicer....... also, the later YST (永受田) tend to use bigger bottle at time too.....

Just a tot.........

Pin

I think this is the first time this theory has been shared YT..

Interesting !


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 16, 2015, 02:03:34 am
Dear George, Pin and Pat,

Thank you for the clarifications and the new theory.
The fun of this forum is to have myth broken and theories sorted out. ;)

So can I presume that the blue bottle is by an older YST or his student as Pat suggested?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on January 16, 2015, 02:37:57 am
Hi YT :

IMO... the first 2 bottles are by the older and IMO, more proficient YST.... you will notice that the older one is more confident in his calligraphy and able to write more....... also, I found the later YST bottle, some are not dated.....

Just a theory.....

Pin


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 16, 2015, 02:44:11 am
Dear Pin,

Ok I get you now. So the better bottles always comes with more calligraphy although the characters are not so nice looking to start with.

Thanks.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on January 16, 2015, 11:53:43 am
Yap... That's the best calligraphy you can get from any YST bottle...  ;D


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: wgeoff on January 16, 2015, 04:36:33 pm
Is this a Yong Shou Tian bottle? of the second type. No calligraphy or signature

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FYST1.jpg&hash=4263d0444e606925f04527e6dc8bfb68) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FYST3.jpg&hash=daa13109e49ded63c83f450703529076)


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on January 16, 2015, 05:41:27 pm
I remember you sharing this one some time ago Geoff..

I like Pats comment about the colors here being associated to Tang Zi Chuan (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2153.msg27559.html#msg27559), but I will vote your bottle from Bill to be Yong Shoutien.. Everything from the facial features to the colors and style look right.. We also know that he enjoyed very much painting larger bottles like this..



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: wgeoff on January 16, 2015, 07:18:17 pm
Ah you caught me out George.
I had forgotten I had already posted this bottle.

Thanks for the comments

Geoff


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on January 20, 2015, 07:58:14 pm
Hi All :

Sharing some pictures of a "2nd" type YST bottle that I brought recently...... tot that the landscape is quite unique for a YST bottle and actually not bad too

Again...... bigger bottles and not dated..... just the place the bottle is painted (Beijing) and by YST

(https://pix1.wikialbums.com/136823716022161236787724541532422521172321347897897197/2279612016849319518419621263408385454136334979877798/Photos/FSM_13066125123966000003480.jpg)

(https://pix1.wikialbums.com/136823716022161236787724541532422521172321347897897197/2279612016849319518419621263408385454136334979877798/Photos/FSM_13066125125188000022716.jpg)


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on January 21, 2015, 03:32:30 am
I have NEVER seen a YST  landscape. Interesting .. the color scheme reminds me of some unsigned landscape bottles I have. Thanks for sharing!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 21, 2015, 03:52:48 am
Dear Pin,

So in your opinion, is this the master or the apprentice?
I'm still quite bad at looking at yst.

Cheers,
YT 


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on January 21, 2015, 11:18:45 am
Hi YT

Remember that it's just my theory and observation..... No prove at all

But a few things I observed

The type 1 is usually :

1) Very colorful... Just like competing with the Ye family
2) Much more detail ESP in representing the main character of the stories
3) The male subject almost always have a red furry ball on top of his head... The red ball is outlined black but never complete the circle.....there will be 2-3 small stroke of black ink to signify that the red ball is furry
4) almost never painted all 5 fingers.... Usually 4
5) Super animated just like there's a conversation going on
6) if not in armor, the male subject is usually painted with a small beer belly... Just like mine
7) The woman hair is like a bread with too much yeast...and the different layers are distinctively painted.
8) if there's armor.... Usually there's copper paint
9) The eyes are small with a quick brush stroke upwards at the end to make the eyes look even smaller
10) nose is usually represented like a U , with one of the vertical line much longer than the other, (the other vertical line is usually a quick and short stroke upwards at the end)..he like big nose
11) Calligraphy is distinct ....
12) small bottles
13) The opposing army usually are denoted by a white face side and a black face side

Again.... Just my observations from the limited YST bottles that I have seen.... Take it with lots of pepper and salt

Pin




Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: rpfstoneman on January 21, 2015, 01:34:40 pm
Quote
The type 1 is usually :

1) Very colorful... Just like competing with the Ye family
2) Much more detail ESP in representing the main character of the stories
3) The male subject almost always have a red furry ball on top of his head... The red ball is outlined black but never complete the circle.....there will be 2-3 small stroke of black ink to signify that the red ball is furry
4) almost never painted all 5 fingers.... Usually 4
5) Super animated just like there's a conversation going on
6) if not in armor, the male subject is usually painted with a small beer belly... Just like mine
7) The woman hair is like a bread with too much yeast...and the different layers are distinctively painted.
Cool if there's armor.... Usually there's copper paint
9) The eyes are small with a quick brush stroke upwards at the end to make the eyes look even smaller
10) nose is usually represented like a U , with one of the vertical line much longer than the other, (the other vertical line is usually a quick and short stroke upwards at the end)..he like big nose
11) Calligraphy is distinct ....
12) small bottles
13) The opposing army usually are denoted by a white face side and a black face side

Pin, interesting summary and thanks for the lesson in observation.   Charll


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on January 21, 2015, 02:13:13 pm
Interesting summery indeed Pin !


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on January 21, 2015, 06:46:34 pm
Dear Pin,

Thank you for your kind observation and findings. I can totally relate now.
Modern digital photography is amazing in capturing fine details. I was only able to find the sewing thread by enlarging the photo whereas can't see much using the Belomo 10X magnification on the bottle.
 
Think I will stick to the small and colourful bottles for YST next time as they are drawn with much more details.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 24, 2016, 01:56:09 am
Dear Brian and Cathy,

Looks like both of you are interested in Yong ShouTian painted bottles. Take a look at the first two bottles that I posted for your comparison. These are not the typical big bottles with or without signatures. Rather they are only 5.3cm high in flattened rectangular form.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 24, 2016, 07:14:40 am
I was told that the larger bottles were mostly painted by students or family instead of YST. There is some hints to this on Bill Patrick's Web site. All except one of the YST bottles listed there are now in my collection.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 24, 2016, 07:41:27 pm
Dear Pat,

Will you be posting them? I just saw a small one(Dream of Red Chambers) in Bill Patrick's with totally same style as mine. The smaller bottles are of much higher quality. Congrats on acquiring so many.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 24, 2016, 08:24:08 pm
YT

In due time when I have a chance to photograph all ... Sorry! And yes I fully agree on the quality of the smaller bottles. In this medium the real YST shows his skills as second tier. My guess is that as large bottles became popular in the 1910 to 1920 era the studio of YST became much more commercial and prolific.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 24, 2016, 10:48:07 pm
What lovely bottles!!
And Pin I think you have made a brilliant observation! It makes total sense now!
I have been drawn to the smaller YST bottles because they remind me so much of the Ye Zhongsan the elder bottles - there is a confidence in the brushwork and a boldness of color that is extremely pleasing to me - and the ease and natural position of the characters in the bottle story is lovely.
So nice to see all these bottles. I very much want to own one!!!



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 25, 2016, 01:06:54 am
Since we are on this topic many of the brown opaque Amber colored small to large bottles are painted with similar scenes and similar features as Pin related to below. Interestingly these bottles are painted to resemble painted agate bottles but they are very rarely signed. In my mind these were also produced by the YST family or group.
 


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: EK on August 25, 2016, 03:47:37 am
Hi everyone! I am new to this forum and have learned much from the many threads that I have read. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

I have this blue glass YST bottle of cylindrical form with a slight taper towards the foot. It is a large Type 2 bottle (8.5 cm w/o stopper) with a Type 1 signature. Would it be correct to place it as a transitional bottle by YST?

Thanks,
Edmund


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 25, 2016, 03:59:13 am
Hi everyone! I am new to this forum and have learned much from the many threads that I have read. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

I have this blue glass YST bottle of cylindrical form with a slight taper towards the foot. It is a large Type 2 bottle (8.5 cm w/o stopper) with a Type 1 signature. Would it be correct to place it as a transitional bottle by YST?

Thanks,
Edmund

Dear Edmund,

Hi, you have been with us for three months. Was waiting for your first post.

As this is part of a big group with similar theme on a large bottle, I will place this with the family/student painted.
Still it is signed in the tradition Yong ShouTian name and the painting quality although not to the master level, it is still good.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on August 25, 2016, 04:16:41 am
Hi Edmund,

Welcome to the forum!

Tom


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on August 25, 2016, 04:23:57 am
Indeed... Welcome Edmund !


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 25, 2016, 04:30:12 am
Dear Edmund,

This is my type 2 bottle with type 1 signature. 9.4cm high. Student bottle.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: EK on August 25, 2016, 06:58:12 am
Dear YT, Tom and Pat

Thank you so much for your warm reception and comments.

Cheers,
Edmund


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on August 25, 2016, 11:10:20 am
Warm welcome Edmund.. Glad you decided to jump in and post a bottle !



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: EK on August 25, 2016, 11:46:43 am
Thank you George. This thread is just too interesting for me to just stay on the sideline. ;-)


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 27, 2016, 08:24:50 pm
So I'm taking my son to college, and my husband and I duck into just two antique shops this morning... and look what I found in the second one. A mother bottle from the second YST! Must be fate!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 27, 2016, 09:38:48 pm
Dear Cathy,

How much was it going for and did you buy it?
Looks to be correct, just some colors faded.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on August 27, 2016, 09:45:34 pm
It is in the style of YST, and yes, I think it is correct as well.





Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 27, 2016, 09:48:49 pm
Yes I bought it! Yay! The shop was asking $125 and I got it for $100 - I thought that might be a really good deal - but you can tell me. It is signed - I will take better pictures when I get back home. 


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on August 27, 2016, 09:50:23 pm
100 dollars is top of the mark for value..

I remember my very first YST bottle Cathy..  I was so excited, I woke my girlfriend up to share my excitement !

http://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2011/12/my-snuff-bottle-collecting-journal.html



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 27, 2016, 10:01:02 pm
Thanks George! Good to know the value. The colors are pretty faded on this one too, but I'm just happy to own one!!!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 27, 2016, 10:01:11 pm
Dear Cathy,

If this is the type 1 signature then your $100 is very worth the buy.
I am truly happy for your accidental buy. Your husband shares your collection interest?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 27, 2016, 10:08:01 pm
I can't tell if this is the first or second signature - probably the second more modern version so am posting a picture. Sorry this is the best picture I can get from my phone.
My husband is "humoring me" at the moment. Haha


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 27, 2016, 10:23:35 pm
Type 1 signature. Well done Cathy!!!  ;D



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 27, 2016, 10:25:48 pm
Oh my gosh! How awesome!!!! Thanks YT!!!

George - your amber YST bottle is awesome - does it have type 1 or type 2 signature? And what a deal you got!!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: samsonlzj on August 27, 2016, 11:27:11 pm
Yes I bought it! Yay! The shop was asking $125 and I got it for $100 - I thought that might be a really good deal - but you can tell me. It is signed - I will take better pictures when I get back home. 

Cathy, that's not just a good deal, that's a steal! :D Congratulations!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on August 27, 2016, 11:45:29 pm
 ;D ;D ;D
Thanks Samson! This makes me want to study more, because it was wonderful today to instantly recognize the artist and know what I was buying!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on August 28, 2016, 01:49:31 am
Congratulation Cathy.....

You can double your return on investment if you study the brush stroke carefully and learn about all the characteristic of a painting drawn by a bamboo tip pen. The ability to differentiate painting done by using bamboo pen and modern brush will come in very handy in the future.

Pin


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 28, 2016, 11:58:37 am
I am home in Jerusalem, and it turns out I do have 2 Yong Shaotian examples. [Yong Shoutian]
I will have them photographed with the 10 Cultural Revolution examples, and get them posted.
Congrats to Cathy and George.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 28, 2016, 06:49:57 pm
I am home in Jerusalem, and it turns out I do have 2 Yong Shaotian examples.
Dear Joey,

Looking forward to your hybrid bottle between Yong ShouTian and Ma ShaoXuan.  :P ;D

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 29, 2016, 06:29:57 am
Whoops!  ;D

Yong Shoutian! Sorry! I was tired when I typed, and all these Chinese Pinyin spellings "look alike"   ::) ;D

True story:
    In 1988, I went on my first trip to the PRC, and in Nanjing, after 10 days in China, I came down
to breakfast to meet the group I was travelling with, from Lindblad Tours, and couldn't recognise the group in
the large dining room! All the Caucasians looked alike! I could recognise the different Chinese people I'd met before,
during meals there. Then one lady, who'd delivered room service to me the night before, took me by the hand,
and led me to my group. Who were laughing, because I'd walked passed them twice looking for the group!

Best,
Joey

I am home in Jerusalem, and it turns out I do have 2 Yong Shaotian examples.
Dear Joey,

Looking forward to your hybrid bottle between Yong ShouTian and Ma ShaoXuan.  :P ;D

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 29, 2016, 07:15:29 am
Dear Joey,

I will truly believe you if you said that your bottle had one side painted by Yong ShouTian and the other by Ma ShaoXuan.  ;D

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 29, 2016, 07:17:48 am
Why, YT?
That would be ridiculous.  ???
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey,

I will truly believe you if you said that your bottle had one side painted by Yong ShouTian and the other by Ma ShaoXuan.  ;D

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on August 29, 2016, 07:41:37 am
Hahahaha.... I won't know what you have seen with 40 over years of collecting.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 29, 2016, 08:47:37 am
Over 46 1/2... I have Asperger's!   ;D ::)
But I never saw such a bottle. The cinema equivalent would be Adam Sandler acting with Sir Lawrence Olivier!  ;D
Best,
Joey


Hahahaha.... I won't know what you have seen with 40 over years of collecting.



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on August 29, 2016, 09:23:18 pm

But I never saw such a bottle. The cinema equivalent would be Adam Sandler acting with Sir Lawrence Olivier! 


Dear Joey,

Spot on with the analogy....!  ;D

Tom


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on August 30, 2016, 03:16:42 am
Dear Tom,

     Thank you.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 01, 2016, 03:01:57 pm
I bought this bottle about three weeks ago before this thread even started. It finally arrived today. I suspected that it was YST when I bought it, but now thanks to the information on this thread I am pretty sure it is, and I'm pretty sure it is the first type signature. It is a small bottle - measures 5.5cm and has a lot of calligraphy on both sides. I was told that it depicts scenes from Dream of the Red Chamber.

I would appreciate your opinion and would also really love to know what it says if anyone would be so kind as to translate!

I also bought an amber glass inside painted that I very much think is also YST but is not signed, but specifically the way the rocks are painted and of course the way the people are painted make me think so. I am going to get together some side by side comparisons to post later.

 ;D ;D ;D





Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 01, 2016, 08:17:22 pm
It does appear to be signed correctly in traditional style, but the painting is not so hot.. 

I hesitate to vote it is his works, but maybe he painted this one in quite a hurry.  Something about the facial features seem off for him to me as well..

The theme looks like “Qiao Niang” from a book named “Liao Zhai, collection of ghost or folk stories .

Lets see what others think ..


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 01, 2016, 08:42:20 pm
Hi Cathy,

This is a typical Yong shoutian bottle, and quite nice I think, altho not the top quality of his work.

The bottle was painted in 1920. one theme is four beauties go shipping, and the other is Qingwen tear off  the fans.

Steven



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 01, 2016, 09:13:58 pm
Thanks so much! I thought there was a date on it!

One thing I haven't mentioned before is that I dabble at being a portrait artist, and so the inside painted bottles (particularly people) are really interesting to me.

I have been studying these paintings and making a note of "markers" in them. There are definitely two very different styles, but there are exceptions and that's what throws me. In the examples in the photo, both signatures are used!

These are just my observations so take them or leave them, and they only apply to his non warrior bottles. These are in addition to the excellent markers already pointed out in this thread (like the yeast hair - haha)

1. The rocks - they are very distinct.
2. Usually there is a big blob of a dark color (signifying a tree I imagine) near the top of the scene.
3. Facial marks are quickly applied and sometimes misplaced.
4. Clothing styles are consistent, and the artist favors bright colors, especially mint green and what I will call Chinese red (also used by Ye Zhongsan)

Let me know what you think.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 01, 2016, 09:34:46 pm
I guess I will go ahead and throw this out there!

Based on these markers - I am suspecting that this little unsigned amber glass bottle is also by him. It is certainly not very good quality, and there is something wrong with the inside of the bottle like it wasn't polished to begin with, or like it melted!



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 01, 2016, 09:45:06 pm
Your last bottle is not YST..

Have you seen this Cathy ?

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/yong_shou_tien/yong_shou_tien_00.htm

There are several YST bottles and Bill shows a lot about the signatures..


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 01, 2016, 09:56:20 pm
Thanks George - I had not seen that link!

I found this one with the same theme as my blue bottle!



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on September 02, 2016, 12:33:43 am
Thanks for sharing Cathy..... YST painting is very child-like and animated .... great fun to look at  ;D

Pin


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 02, 2016, 12:57:54 am
Dear Cathy,

You really have good eyes and a good way to study .

I am with Pin , yong 's painting style is very childish which made it very unique, and recognizable. I have seen many bottles similar with your blown bottle ,same shape ,same color, same painting style, but non was dated and signed, I personally think the painting style is close enough to yong's , altho I dont have any proof for now. But if let me vote , I will vote for him. Since i have not seen someone else'style was so close to yong's .but those unsigned bottles are always less quality than the signed ones.

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on September 02, 2016, 01:57:33 am
It is my guess that these unsigned simpler cartoon like Amber bottles are by Yong students as I mentioned here somewhere before. They are never signed or dated (at least I haven't seen one yet as of now). One of the earliest catalogued versions of this was in the Marquis of Exeter catalog by Hugh Moss.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 02, 2016, 08:39:21 am
Yes Pat, it was your earlier post that made me really start to examine that amber colored bottle. Thanks for the tip on where to find more info. I just ordered the catalog.  ;D

Thanks Steven for the vote!

And yes Pin, I really like his style! He is a favorite and also has the appeal of being a mystery! ;)

I have ordered another bottle that I suspect is YST and this one is very different - it is a cyclinder shaped bottle of men feasting around a table. I will be sure to post it here when it comes in. Because it is round, I will try to do the piece together photography on that one!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 02, 2016, 03:06:43 pm
Well I couldn't believe it got here so fast - but that bottle came today!
I gave up on the photostitch after just 5 minutes - will have to revisit that later when I have more time.

I am very excited about this bottle because it's different! It's a rather big bottle measuring 8.4 cm. It has all the markers of the first bottles and some from the second type of bottles - here are the markers I've found:

1. Red fuzzy ball above many of the mens heads
2. Copper colored paint on the warriors armour
3. The signature rocks
4. dark blob at the top for a tree branch
5. dark and light faces
6. Misplaced facial marks (especially on profiles)

I am really quite thrilled with this bottle and think it is much better quality than the blue one!

Please let me know your thoughts and any help with the calligraphy would be most appreciated. I am very much hoping this one has a date and also I would love to know the theme - if you look closely you can see there is a flying stone? heading their way and I can't tell if they are under attack or if it's just the guy at the head of the table tossing a dinner roll into the rocks! haha



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 02, 2016, 06:25:51 pm
Nice one Cathy !

I want to call this one a mother bottle for it's size.   I do not see a date, but likely about 1920'ish..

I am not finding the unusual theme with the ( meteor ? ) rock across the sky. I will keep looking !

I like it very much, and congrats !


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 02, 2016, 06:31:30 pm
Thanks George - I like the "tossing the dinner roll" idea myself!
Since the bottle is round, he could be passing it to the other end of the table.
hahaha

Obviously I have had too much cold medicine today!



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on September 02, 2016, 07:13:57 pm
Dear Cathy,

Does the 8.4cm include the stopper?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: samsonlzj on September 02, 2016, 07:21:38 pm
The work depicts Zhuge Liang, probably the most famous military strategist in the history of China, who lived at the time of 3 dynasties, serving the dynasty of Shu Han, which strived to restore the Han royal house in a unified Central Plain (essentially China).


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 02, 2016, 07:26:06 pm
I searched as best I could, but not finding any themes related to comets/meteors .. Nor am I finding a painting showing guys sitting around a table like this.



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: samsonlzj on September 02, 2016, 07:32:34 pm
The theme is 痛哭龐統, Zhuge Liang was weeping over the death of his fellow strategist Pang Tong who was lost in an enemy ambush at a place called Luo Feng Po (which means Phoenix downing valley, Zhuge Liang was known as the dragon and Pang Tong was known as the phoenix, they were considered as Shu Han's treasures), according to the Romance of Three Dynasties, one of the 4 Chinese literature classics..


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 02, 2016, 07:33:00 pm
YT - yes! 8.4cm without the stopper! A mother bottle for sure!

Samson - thank you so much! He must be the one of the end of the table with the fan! And he must be launching the rock - and everyone is turned to see it fly!

Oh how wonderful it is to solve a mystery!

Thank you!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 02, 2016, 07:44:42 pm
The one and only reference I can find related to comets is that they were unlucky omens, and the appearance of Halley's comet in 1910/1911 brought with it a great deal of unrest and fear, The people believed that it indicated calamity such as war, fire and pestilence..


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on September 02, 2016, 10:25:13 pm
It's a Chinese belief that every life on earth is represented by a star in the sky..... The brightness of the star that represent you will also represent how important are you in this world.

So if a bright star fall from the sky..... It also represent that a important person is going to die soon..... In this case, with the astronomical knowledge of Zhu GeLiang, he know that the fallen star represent Pang Tong and misfortune will befall him soon....

Pin


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 02, 2016, 10:46:51 pm
Excellent Pin !


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 02, 2016, 11:04:51 pm
Absolutely beautiful Pin! Thank you for the explanation.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 06, 2016, 06:20:53 pm
To follow up on the discussion that many of the amber unsigned bottles are also attributed to YST, I got a new book today "Chinese Snuff Bottles from the collection of the Marquess of Exeter" and look what I found on the last page!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: George on September 06, 2016, 06:37:01 pm
To follow up on the discussion that many of the amber unsigned bottles are also attributed to YST, I got a new book today "Chinese Snuff Bottles from the collection of the Marquess of Exeter" and look what I found on the last page!


I think that is an error for describing this one.. Pi Jungchiu was a much better painter than this..

I think it is a YST student bottle..


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 06, 2016, 06:47:26 pm
Yes, George - please ignore M.13 - I was referring to M.12


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on September 06, 2016, 10:31:41 pm
Bingo !   :D


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 06, 2016, 10:55:04 pm
Yeah Pat nailed it on the unsigned amber bottles.

I really like this artist, but am going to have to curb my enthusiasm - at least on this board. It seems the more we talk about him, the higher the prices get online. People read this forum! It comes up on the Google searches. I've seen one bottle go from $165 to $350 just since the thread started (a second signature one)  and then another one came onto the market at $1000.

So if I want to be able to get more of these bottles, gonna have to keep my comments to myself!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on September 06, 2016, 11:45:14 pm
Yeah Pat nailed it on the unsigned amber bottles.

I really like this artist, but am going to have to curb my enthusiasm - at least on this board. It seems the more we talk about him, the higher the prices get online. People read this forum! It comes up on the Google searches. I've seen one bottle go from $165 to $350 just since the thread started (a second signature one)  and then another one came onto the market at $1000.

So if I want to be able to get more of these bottles, gonna have to keep my comments to myself!
Time to sell ;D ;D


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2016, 12:03:26 am
Yeah Pat nailed it on the unsigned amber bottles.

I really like this artist, but am going to have to curb my enthusiasm - at least on this board. It seems the more we talk about him, the higher the prices get online. People read this forum! It comes up on the Google searches. I've seen one bottle go from $165 to $350 just since the thread started (a second signature one)  and then another one came onto the market at $1000.

So if I want to be able to get more of these bottles, gonna have to keep my comments to myself!

Dear Cathy,

Can you talk about the other artists, maybe its time for us to sell the bottles.:)Just kidding..

its quite normal that  prices of the bottles are different , it depends on the bottle itself(material), shapes, sizes, colors, painting quality, condition, signed or not, motifs, provenance, all the factors will affect the selling price, I have seen Yong shoutian bottles sold from $50-$1500 range these years. ofcoz I bet our forum can affect the price too, But not that much.:)

Happy hunting!

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 12:12:58 am
Haha! If you need to sell some bottles, start a thread!

I think this forum has a lot to do with it - to me it's kind of like the Dow Jones of Snuff Bottles.
You could probably graph prices with the number of posts.

Who shall we inflate next?



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2016, 12:46:00 am
Haha! If you need to sell some bottles, start a thread!

I think this forum has a lot to do with it - to me it's kind of like the Dow Jones of Snuff Bottles.
You could probably graph prices with the number of posts.

Who shall we inflate next?



Ok, let us start from here , I have two bottles need to be inflated.:)

One is Yong shoutian, the other is Xue Chengcai. ;) if the price is go over $1000.00, I will sell them all.:)

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 01:08:35 am
Hahaha You call my bluff!

I said they were "asking" $1000, not getting it.

The top price I've seen paid for a second signature YST is $600 from this bottle here:
https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/14706360_yong-shoutian-glass-snuff-bottle

However, I'm not having much luck finding XCC bottles - and they are seem harder to find than YST so that should be in your favor. There was one recently listed on ebay for a little over $800 but I'm not finding it now.

But it's really not right to try to change the values. The value of a bottle should be based on the bottle and the artist's merit. I was just saying that we may have inflated YST's value by talking about him so much and so that should benefit you when you sell your bottle. I think we also made it easier for people to identify a YST bottle and once a person knows what they have, they will ask more for it.

Let's see what everyone else says!


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2016, 01:15:27 am
I was kidding Cathy ::)

They are not for sell , those are only two I want to keep unless I find better ones.
 
Also dont rush to buy bottles, be patient , you will find right ones with right price.

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 01:20:29 am
I have toyed with the notion of making mine the 90 day collection - 90 bottles in 90 days with a mediocre budget and then stopping cold turkey. I realize my biggest fault is my impatience.  It is addictive, this business of collecting. You would think that I could stop and revel in an acquisition, which I do - but it is short lived and then I set my sights on the next big prize.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: AntPeople on September 07, 2016, 02:10:37 am
90 bottles in 90 days :o

maybe 1 bottle in 90 days is a good start and spend the rest of the 89 days reading

Hahahaha

YeePin


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on September 07, 2016, 02:15:00 am
Good advice Pin!

In my first year of collecting I had more books than bottles.

And I just realized I still do! I have over 200 books on snuff bottles, but under 200 bottles.
Maybe I should call myself a book collector instead....   ;D


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on September 07, 2016, 02:24:11 am
Good advice Pin!

In my first year of collecting I had more books than bottles.

And I just realized I still do! I have over 200 books on snuff bottles, but under 200 bottles.
Maybe I should call myself a book collector instead....   ;D
I just realized that I have too little books(80+).

Gotta catch them all(Pokémon phase  ;D)

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on September 07, 2016, 03:15:38 am

I just realized that I have too little books(80+).

Gotta catch them all(Pokémon phase  ;D)


Dear YT,

None of us will ever catch up with Richard...  ;D

Tom


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: richy88 on September 07, 2016, 04:54:09 am
Hahaha Tom!  ;D

I heard my name being mentioned!

I just did an update on my list, 223 Chinese titles, 1035 English (& some foreign) titles, including books, journals, catalogues, etc.

Regards.


Richard



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on September 07, 2016, 05:08:04 am

I just did an update on my list, 223 Chinese titles, 1035 English (& some foreign) titles, including books, journals, catalogues, etc.


 :o  ::)  :o


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on September 07, 2016, 05:41:08 am
Hahaha Tom!  ;D

I heard my name being mentioned!

I just did an update on my list, 223 Chinese titles, 1035 English (& some foreign) titles, including books, journals, catalogues, etc.

Regards.


Richard


Only on Snuff bottles? That's very impressive Richard.

I am at 500+ including journals and catalogs.  :P

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: richy88 on September 07, 2016, 05:50:54 am
Hi YT

Some catalogues are not solely on snuff bottles but includes other Chinese Works of Art as well.

Books are mainly on bottles with a few covering related topics such as amber, glass and ivory.

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2016, 08:54:26 am
Wow!!! You guys are all book collectors.:) And this topic will inflate the book market anytime soon.:)

I actually count my book this morning, roughly 120, while I only have less than 100 bottles .

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on September 07, 2016, 09:07:48 am

I actually count my book this morning, roughly 120, while I only have less than 100 bottles .


That is a good ratio Steven!   ;)

Tom


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 10:44:21 am
I have 38 books and refuse to count my bottles on the grounds they will incriminate me! I haven't even read all 38 of my books yet. Am just a quarter of the way into Chinese meanings. If the truth be told though, I probably have as many really "good" bottles as I have books.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2016, 12:36:46 pm
I have 38 books and refuse to count my bottles on the grounds they will incriminate me! I haven't even read all 38 of my books yet. Am just a quarter of the way into Chinese meanings. If the truth be told though, I probably have as many really "good" bottles as I have books.

38 good bottles in 90 days, that is still very impressive!!

I have been collecting since the Forum was setup by George, I believe it have been more than 5 years, I don't think that I have 38 good bottles yet.:)

Keep it up, But be more patient.:)

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 12:59:46 pm
Thanks Steven - the majority of the good bottles I have are mainly because of the members of this forum. I have found some very good guidance and advise here.  ;D


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 07, 2016, 04:51:31 pm
Dear Cathy,

      For the pneumonia, are you by any chance on any hallucinogenics?  Because I've looked at all the bottles you've posted here or on Collectors' Weekly, and Sweety, you 'don't got' 38 really good bottles yet.
     You might have 5 really good, and 10 good, and possibly another 5 decent; and 100+ crap. ::)
REALITY CHECK. REALITY CHECK.  ;D
Best,
Feel Better,
Joey


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: YT on September 07, 2016, 08:44:45 pm
Dear Cathy,

      For the pneumonia, are you by any chance on any hallucinogenics?  Because I've looked at all the bottles you've posted here or on Collectors' Weekly, and Sweety, you 'don't got' 38 really good bottles yet.
     You might have 5 really good, and 10 good, and possibly another 5 decent; and 100+ crap. ::)
REALITY CHECK. REALITY CHECK.  ;D
Best,
Feel Better,
Joey
Dear Joey,

"38 good bottles in 90 days, that is still very impressive!!" This is a misunderstood statement from Steven.
Cathy wrote that she have 38 books.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Wattana on September 07, 2016, 10:13:32 pm

This is a misunderstood statement from Steven.
Cathy wrote that she have 38 books.


Precisely noted YT!

And Cathy is NOT disclosing the number of bottles she has on the grounds of being incriminated.

Wise decision Cathy....!   ;)

Tom


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Steven on September 07, 2016, 11:14:27 pm
I probably have as many really "good" bottles as I have books.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

But I do really think Cathy did very good job on collecting. She can ID a quite few of old artists easily, which took me more than a year to collect a couple of good bottles she really has a good eye and taste. Once she has some guildline ,she will be a really good collector.

Steven


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 11:20:17 pm
Joey – I am going to prove that I have 38 good bottles! I didn't mean I have "really good" bottles, I meant I really have some "good" bottles.

I am behind on my collector’s weekly posts, and so I have tried to bring it up to date with pictures of the ones not already posted on the forum – these are not the best pictures because I don’t have natural light right now, but I had to set the record straight so you will stop saying I have collected a bunch of crap!  :P

I consider the following bottles to be my collection, not the bottles that I bought in error (which I am trying to get rid of by the way). If any of these aren't "good" bottles, I am sure you will let me know!

Organic

1. Hornbill
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200081-hornbill-ivory-snuff-bottle

2 - 6 Ivories for the Thai market
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200070-wise-man-ivory-carved-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200071-ivory-carved-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200072-abstract-tree-ivory-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200073-ivory-lion-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200074-playful-lions-ivory-snuff-bottle

and I’m not even going to count this ivory, which I think is also nice
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200066-ivory-carved-snuff-bottle

7. Laque Burgaute bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203886-laque-burgaute-snuff-bottle

8. Undecorated black lacquer bottle (I read that this is rare)
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/201089-plain-black-lacquer-snuff-bottle

9. Canton Export Inlaid Mother of Pearl Bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203894-mother-of-pearl-snuff-bottle

10-11. I actually have three of these, but am only counting two - horn with ivory overlay bottles
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200075-horn-and-ivory-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203897-horn-and-ivory-snuff-bottle


Stone

12. Gray and White Jade (posted here on the forum)

13. Celadon Green Jade with chi dragons
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203887-celedon-jade-chi-dragons-snuff-bottle

14. Carved jade with flowers and butterfly
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203904-flowers-and-butterfly-jade-snuff-bottle

15-16. Archaic design on rose quartz, and (carved like water jade) rose quartz
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203909-archiac-design-rose-quartz-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203891-delicately-carved-rose-quartz-snuff-bott

17. Amygdaloidal Basalt Snuff Bottle (on forum)

Porcelain

18. Buddhist Lion porcelain bottle (this has not arrived yet so I am attaching a photo from the auction)

19. Famille Rose Molded porcelain people in boat bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203908-molded-porcelain-snuff-bottle

20. Zhong Kui painted porcelain bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203900-zhong-kui-porcelain-snuff-bottle

21-24. I have several other good porcelains but I’m only counting three (although I think it's more than that)
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197726-chocolate-glaze-chien-lung-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197728-red-and-white-glaze-mystery-mark-snuff-b
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197812-red-underglaze-dragon-reign-mark-snuff-b
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197815-green-dragon-kang-hsi-reign-mark-snuff
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197725-blue-and-white-porcelain-yung-cheng-snu
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197825-another-man-fishing-under-a-tree-snuff-b
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197819-hexagon-kang-hsi-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197818-dark-blue-man-fishing-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197817-shun-chih-flower-vase-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197816-tall-woman-small-man-snuff-bottle


Glass

25. Blue overlay glass chi dragons
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200063-snowflake-glass-with-blue-overlay-snuff

26. Pink overlay chi dragons
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/201011-pink-dragon-glass-overlay-snuff-bottle

Translucent red overlay hundred antiques (I am not going to count this because it has a chip on the base that I haven’t had repaired yet)
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203905-hundred-antiques-red-overlay-snuff-bottl

27. Birdcage overlay bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197723-la-cage-aux-folles-snuff-bottle

28. Pink glass imitating tourmaline pebble bottle (on forum)

29 – 30 Two glass imitating coral bottles
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/197722-glass-coral-snuff-bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/199572-yellow-glass-snuff-bottle

31. Plain blue glass bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203901-cobalt-blue-glass-snuff-bottle

32. Plain red glass bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/203906-ruby-red-translucent-glass-snuff-bottle

And I’m not even counting my 4 glass imitating shadow agate bottles, two glass imitating carnelian bottles, two glass imitating jade bottles, one glass imitating some kind of zebra stone, my Henry Hitt mystery swirl bottle and several more overlay glass bottles that I’m not sure about yet.

Inside Painted

33. Tang Zichuan signing as Zhou Leyuan inside painted bottle (picture on forum)

34. Xue Chengcai inside painted bottle green glass (pictured on forum)

35 – 37. Three Yong Shoutian bottles (on forum) Not counting the unsigned amber one!

Metal
38. Metal hinged enamel medicine bottle
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/200065-metal-hinged-enameled-snuff-bottle




Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 07, 2016, 11:26:44 pm
Thank you Steven, Tom and YT for the vote of confidence!
Joey's post prompted me catalog my bottles - so I am happy about that!



Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 08, 2016, 11:05:17 am
Guys,
 
     For those for whom English is not a first language, I will accept the error.
But it says: " If the truth be told though, I probably have as many really "good" bottles as I have books."
Ergo, 38 "really "good" bottles".

    8, 9 10, 11, 14, 17, 19, most of the ones where you've listed reign names on the CW (And PLEASE remove Kangxi, Shunzhi, etc, from the titles. NONE of them should be so described. Having an obviously fake mark does not allow you to write that in the title. If you want to add to the description, "Fake Shunzhi mark on base" that is fine. There is NO reason for you to have added Kangxi to that B & W.).

     I've got to go take friends to dinner, but I count 15 good out of the first 30 you list.
Best,
Joey




I have 38 books and refuse to count my bottles on the grounds they will incriminate me! I haven't even read all 38 of my books yet. Am just a quarter of the way into Chinese meanings. If the truth be told though, I probably have as many really "good" bottles as I have books.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 08, 2016, 12:18:21 pm
Dear Joey,

I spent a great deal of time to put together this list for you.

I would appreciate it if you would list the numbers of the bottles that you think are not "good" bottles.

Let's also establish that I put quotations around "good" because that is all I meant. I did not mean "really good" - if I had meant that I would have included the quotations around really as well. I only think I have two "really good" bottles and those would be the hornbill and the gray and white jade - and you may also disagree on that.

I went through the CW listings and removed any reign mark mention in the title.

Now I have jumped through all the hoops like a good monkey. 

If you are going to continue to call my collection "crap" then I need to know "why" it is.

 :-*
Cathy




Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 08, 2016, 01:55:10 pm
Dear Cathy,

     I definitely agree about the Hornbill and the gray & white Jade being very good.
From your numbers, the ones I don't judge good (and it is my opinion; it was not given inscribed on a stone tablet on Mt. Sinai!  ;D): are 8,9,10,11,14,17,19 (but I've only got through to #24). I will go through the other bottles and give you a full list when I have a chance (I have guests from Malta this week, and have been run ragged from 07:15 to 22:00 (10pm) each night.
     I've not yet rechecked, but if you've removed all the reign names from titles, thank you. Just so you understand - A reign mark should ONLY be mentioned in a title when it is "and of the period". It is fine to mention it in the body of the description, as long as you use the phrase, "fake x mark" or "x mark but not of the period". In the early days, as YF Yang would say, one could write "apocryphal x reign mark", but today, that is problematic.
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey,

I spent a great deal of time to put together this list for you.

I would appreciate it if you would list the numbers of the bottles that you think are not "good" bottles.

Let's also establish that I put quotations around "good" because that is all I meant. I did not mean "really good" - if I had meant that I would have included the quotations around really as well. I only think I have two "really good" bottles and those would be the hornbill and the gray and white jade - and you may also disagree on that.

I went through the CW listings and removed any reign mark mention in the title.

Now I have jumped through all the hoops like a good monkey. 

If you are going to continue to call my collection "crap" then I need to know "why" it is.

 :-*
Cathy





Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: cshapiro on September 08, 2016, 02:04:52 pm
Ok! I anxiously await your post and will try to decipher why those bottles are not good in the meantime.


Title: Re: Sharing some Yong Shou Tian bottles and asking for clarification.
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 09, 2016, 05:08:28 pm
Dear Cathy,

      First of all, Well done (I checked each of the bottles that you posted.), but there is nothing wrong in describing the mark in the body of the description as long as you describe them as 'apocryphal' or 'fake' (shorter and simpler  :D). In fact it is a good idea.

      Next, please don't be too anxious - my guests don't depart before Wed. aft.!

    Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey



Ok! I anxiously await your post and will try to decipher why those bottles are not good in the meantime.