Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Hello,

Just wanted to share a very nice book for rebus and motifs, by Patricia B Welch
Chinese Art: A Guide to Motifs and Visual Imagery

It is much boarder in scope and in some areas with very good depth, compared to Bartholomew's Hidden meaning in Chinese Art (very strong in plant based rebus or Southern Chinese, but weak in other areas).

I was pleasantly surprised that she covered at least some numbers, imperial symbols, court badges (military and non military), religious, and a few other areas. Some of these were skipped completely in the other work.

An added bonus is that the author paid for the rights (or manage to secure) to include pictures from quite a few property owners. It makes a huge difference to appreciate how the motifs were actually used and integrated into works of arts.

Best Regards,
David

Where did you find a copy David?  I have the Bartholomew Book, but this one sounds interesting.  Thanks for sharing with us!

Hello Jo,

You're welcome.

I found it on Amazon (they are actually a very good place to look for books, a lot of the the used stores like Paragon, Crunruh, Powell, friends of ??? Library etc... are on their market place.) But, sometimes need to be patient to wait for a good copy at a fair price.

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Art-Motifs-Visual-Imagery/dp/0804843163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420775781&sr=8-1&keywords=chinese+art+a+guide

I purchased a used hard copy, as I expect to flip through this book a lot.

Best Regards,
David

Dear David,
    I was invited to a book launch for this one when it first came out, at the Siam Society in Bangkok. The author was present, and gave a lecture on the topic. Regrettably, I did not buy a copy (signed and discounted 10% that evening), because I felt that both the talk and the book covered the same ground as three similar books I already had.
    The way you describe it now makes me wish I had bought it.
Tom

Dear David,
    Thank you. I will buy this book after Sabbath ends here in Toronto ( in about 2 1/4 hrs.).
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Gosh, such a huge difference in price between the hardcover and paperback..

Dear George,

I noticed 2 things regarding buying expensive books (hardback or out of print) from Amazon marketplace. You need to be patient or diligent. Like hunting for bargains in collecting stuffs  :D

1) Occasionally, a "friend" of Library seller or just a person getting rid of a collections of books will sell hardcover or nice ones for a really low price. I got my hardcopy for this one in very good condition for 21 including shipping. So, wait patiently and check back for such a chance.

2) Or if you search diligently, in the paperback section of listing. There are occasionally the chance to buy a good hardcover one at paperback price. (Like the Chinese Character ... by Wieger, the seller describe a hardcover copy in the paperback section at paperback price of 18, It is on it's way so I will know soon if I got a hardcover at a great price)

But for special books like Treasuries ... from Moss, I don't think there is much chance to buy one on the cheap.

Kindly,
David

Dear Joey,

I think you will enjoy this book, as a general knowledge one or reminder.  ;D Then you can dig into your library for the in depth knowledge.

Warmly (Stay warm in Toronto and take care, the weather is cray these days...),
David

Dear Tom,

Aside from Hidden Meaning in Chinese Art, what are the other 2 that you have? If I know them, then I might be able to give you an idea if it is worthwhile to get this one.

Best Regards,
David

Dear David,
     I bought a copy for Israel and another for Ireland.
Thank you,
Joey

Dear Joey,

You're welcome.

Chapters 4, 5, 6 (animals,insects, fish imaginary or real), the chapters in Part II (Mortal and Religious Beings) are the strong point of this book.

Part III is still good (chapter 15, 16 -numbers, religious symbols), but the other chapters are obviously out of her comfort zone.

The fruit, plant, flowers... is not as deep as or have as much exhaustive combination of rebus as the other book, but very balanced and more diverse.

Kindly,
David

Dear David,
     Thank you. This is great. For those subjects which are not as good in this book, I will stay with Therese Tse Bartholemew's book. So in effect, the two books are complementary (ie, they 'complete' each other).
    It is f---ing cold here! I want to be back home in Jerusalem already (and I have another 4 days still!). G-D, Please Help me, and Make my room and the outside, warmer. Amen.
Joey

Dear Joey,

There is definitely no nice weather during this season in Toronto. Keep warm and stay cool.:)

Best wish!

Steven

Dear David,

The books I have are:

C.A.S. Williams, "Outlines of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives." Third Revised Edition. Dover Publications, New York, 1998.

Wolfram Eberhard, "A Dictionary of Chinese Symbols." Routledge, New York, 1998.

and another which deals less with symbolism, more with the myths and legends:

E.T.C. Werner, "Myths and Legends of China." Dover Publications, New York, 1994.

These are all good quality paper back re-prints of older editions (sewn binding, and acid-free paper that doesn't turn yellow).

Regards,
Tom

Dear Tom,

While i was researching which books to "collect" for learning about Chinese Art, Traditions, History and Snuff bottles. I did came across some reviews on the following:

1) C.A.S. Williams, "Outline of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives". The sense I got was that it was a "bible for westerner" when first published, but there was a lot of mistakes/misconception as the author (I think no single person/group of person could make a general work of all areas.) only have limited reference materials or access to people (is it 1940s?). And it uses line drawing, and hard to tell if the symbolism is for literature or drawn/carved artworks. But, I might get one for completeness as it is often referenced to in notes and endnotes.

3) Werner, I believe people who looks down on the culture that they are writing about are not even worthy of further research.

Based on what I read from the reviews and my views, I think money spend on Patricia Welch's book will not be a waste for you.


I did not buy any of Eberhard's books (don't understand German, and the english translate is too pricey for a curiosity reading), but I did came across him while researching what to "collect". Wolfram Eberhard's work should be of the level of S. Cammann in folklore. That book on symbols was first published in 1983, but due to his methodical way (engineering-objecive) from sample pages on Amazon, I believe it is worthwhile to have. I do plan on buying one if an old used one come up at a good price. If you assume this one is the detailed bones, then Welch's book is the meat in most areas.

Best Regards,
David

Dear Joey,

I will think warmly for you  ;D hope the "energy" passes some heat to you.

Do you like raw ginger?

If you wash a piece of ginger clean and then use a knife to shave off the "knots, wrinkles etc..." but keep as much of the smooth skin as possible. Then wash it again.

Then you can slice it thin (~ 10 pages thick), and put a few slices in a hot cup of water. Then drink it, it will help you to stay warm and counter the cold inside of you.

If you feel you are catching a cold, sinus is stuffy or throat have mucus, then you can keep a slice in your mouth and slowly bite down to let the juice cover the inside of the mouth and throat (spit out the fiber/skin when it is no longer juicing, if you have a weak stomach, else swallowing it is fine). It helps sometimes. (but don't overdo it, and stop if you feel it makes you cough). And after 2-4 slices, take a spoonful of honey or a cup of warm water.


Yes, these 2 books complement each other. But I think we will need to find 3-5 more books to really complete this area (and will need to skip Buddhist symbols... they may have more then all the other areas put together...).

Stay warm,
David

Dear Tom,

Thank you for your list of books, the naming is different from what I looked for before and I was able to get a used copy of William's 2000 and Bernhard's book 1986 for basically just shipping!

Best Regards,
David

Dear David,

I believe the Werner book was written in the 1930s. I don't know whose review you read, or where (if it was from Amazon, take it with a pinch of salt - anyone can air their personal opinion on their "reviews"). The comment about "looking down on the culture that they are writing about" comes as a surprise, because I never got that feeling from his book! Sure, it is written for a Western audience, and there are anomalies, but I find it to be a useful cross-reference.

All three books were bought because they are frequently referred to in books about snuff bottles.

Tom

Thanks Tom!

I just ordered my copies. 

Dear Tom,

I check a reviewer's (R. Adam) other reviews when it comes out negative in this kind of way. And I don't detect that he is oversensitive or a negative person from his other ones. If I recall correctly there are also 2 other reviewers (out of 10 or 11 total) that were put off by his commentary/opinion as being offensive or moralizing.

When I cross check the author on the internet, a reference to him on Wikipedia and another on Shanghailist's review of "Midnight in Peking" by Paul French do not paint a scholarly picture and seem to paint a picture of someone that is angry with his situation and do not get along with both fellow British or the Chinese that he lives with.

So, I assumed that he is one of those kind of authors.

The price of his book is low enough 3.99 + a few cents that I will go ahead and order one to see why he is so controversial and if someone like me will be offended.

Best Regards,
David

Dear David,

How interesting! It would never occur to me to delve into the background of an author when buying a reference book. From what you are saying, I deduce that Mr. Werner was living in or around Shanghai in the 1920s or 30s. (Sorry if I've got that wrong; I haven't as yet checked him out on the internet.)

I am curious about one thing, though. If he was really looking down on the culture he was writing about, as claimed in the review, why go to the bother of writing a book about it?

Looking forward to your analysis of the book.

Tom

Dear Tom,

 ;D exactly the same thought that occurred to me when you mentioned that you did not feel what the reviewers mentioned. And made me curious. And like you mentioned, I think it can be a good cross reference even if I don't like his opinions.

As I am new to this area of study and there is a lot of authors, I decided to check the backgrounds of the authors as an additional criteria to decide if I should purchase their book or catalogs. It also gives me a feel for which author to rely on when there is conflicting information. Also the last thing I need is to absorb "misinformation".

And if an author was in China during 1910-1950 in northern/coastal china then I would wonder how much scholarly research he can really be doing. While one living there during 1950-1980, I will wonder if he is researching or printing what the communist party wants (one of the thing they wanted was to wipe out the religion/beliefs from the past and start over).

But if one like Bushell in the pre 1900, or someone like Cammann, or strong modern day researcher like Gary Dickinson or Welch, or a researcher from a respectable museum writing a catalog for within their specialty then I put a lot of weight in what they share.

Best Regards,
David

Dear Steven,
     Thank you. Words to ponder.   :D
The wedding was wonderful, and I got to eat twice already in Lai Wah Heen ( third time on Wed., for lunch).
Best,
Joey

Dear Tom,

Amazingly, I received 3rd edition Chinese Symbolism and Art Motifs by CAS Williams yesterday... the seller must live closeby. I am on Deer right now and wanted to let you know what I think.

The sections written by Williams with 0 or 1 "authority" referenced is very nice, he really knows the materials in these sections, I learned a few things that I did not even know about or heard before. I read these carefully. There are still inconsistencies with what I know, but very minor and most likely due to translating Chinese word/concepts. The only serious ones, is when he uses western logic to explain Chinese rituals.

The sections where he sourced from 2 or more authorities are usually not good. Either he is not interested and just included some other's saying for completeness or he does not feel comfortable to correct them. I think this is where most of the errors, mistakes that other readers noticed came from. I had started to skim or skip these sections.

My impression of him from his sections that I read so far is that he is very strong in Scholarly Chinese traditions, Confucian rituals, imperial, antiques (bronze, porcelain etc...), animals, Taoist and oddly... clothing.

It's like 2 books in one. A very good book of his strong areas, and a book of collection of information/misinformation from other sources. They should take those out and make an abridged version of his strong areas (minus the "modern" 1900-30s information), it is a shame that some really good information is buried in the chaff.

Best Regards,
David

Dear David,
      Very interesting critique. I would agree that the book should be abridged to highlight the serious material and remove 'the chaff', but  "the "modern" 1900-30s information" would be of interest to help us understand China of the period 1900-1940, as well.
   Best,
Joey
   

Dear David,

Thanks for your insights into this book. As Joey says, your comments are very interesting, and analytical.
Ever thought of becoming a book critic?  ;)

Tom

Dear Joey and Tom,

Thank you both.

I actually think the 1900-1940s info also confuses people within the context of this book, and might be better as an addendum separate from the main body.

 ;) ...  two thumbs up!  ;D

Kindly,
David

Dear Tom,

After more reading (on Five Elements now) on Chinese Symbolism and Art Motifs by CAS Williams, I need to update my opinion. I came across a few entries that are long with lots of authorities listed, and pretty well written.


The above needs to be qualified for short entries, where he just combines info from sources.

This book grows on you, and is very nice if you can figure out which to ignore.  1 thumbs up  ;D



Regarding Myths and Legends of China by Werner... The section on Sociology of the Chinese is quite insulting, I started skimming after page ~40ish only stopping at key points or persons (like Confucius, Shang Ti, Tien, Pan Gu, etc...) to read carefully.

Reading selected myths in latter sections, to be fair, is of better quality and might be the only easy to use reference in those times. But, if I were a serious scholar and read the first 3 sections, I will not quote this book.

I think he is either bipolar or perhaps he blames Confucius, Taoism, and Buddha for the sorry start that China was after 1800s. But, his "analysis" of the Chinese people is really inappropriate.

No wonder a new book of his is worth just a few cents.

Indignantly at people like Werner,
David

Dear David,
    I've not read his book, but if Werner's comments about the Chinese People bother you, don't read the crap written by the two English 'Gentlemen' who invented Wade-Giles romanization of Chinese in the late 19th C.
    They made it up as they went along, the more prurient the better, and polite English people could openly read about the Dowager Empress having orgies in the Forbidden City with pseudo-Eunuchs, while Queen Victoria was actually dallying with her Scottish horsegroom, John Brown.
   Best,
      Joey

 
Dear Joey,
:D Duly noted. But, I don't think I will have a problem with that kind of fabrications.

I have no issues with comments/make believe/opinion about a single person. But, when generalized to a whole race is where I draw the line.

Kindly,
David

Dear David,
      Mssrs. Wade and Giles used the Dowager Empress as a lightning rod, but basically defamed the whole Chinese people with their lies.
     Shabbat Shalom,
        Joey

Dear Joey,

Really? I have not read any of their books so did not know that... sigh... it is a very slippery slope these kinds of thinking can lead to. Then good riddance to their system.

Shabbat Shalom and disappointed at this kind of "scholars",
David

Dear David, et al,
     I must make a correction, in the interest of accuracy: Prof. Wade was actually ca. 1860s/1870s, and while not accurate in his descriptions of Chinese life, culture and mores, and very negative; was not as bad as Mr. Giles and another man who was correspondent for the Times of London ca. 1890 to 1902, and whose name escapes me at the moment. These latter two were the ones who wrote the most heinous lies about the Chinese people  in general and the Dowager Empress in particular.
    But both Wade and Giles were serving the British Empire in a diplomatic capacity, as well as writing material for the public (and getting paid for it).
  Sorry for any confusion.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Thank you for clarifying.

Hopefully, "scholars" or people that thinks like that and in position to influence the public thinking is a thing of the past or marginalized.

Shabbat Shalom,
David

Dear David,
     "Happy is he who has faith!"   ;D  ;)
I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
There is a classic Jewish maxim:'Chabdehu veChashdehu' ("Respect Him, But Suspect Him").
This goes double for 'scholars', journalists and liars. I mean lawyers.  ;D  ;)
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Dear Joey,

LOL   :D, one can always hope or avoid them.

Warmly,
David