Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Please note if you see the following notes on my posting. It means that those were purchased prior to joining this forum and starting to learn about this area. I will take one person's advice and only post (after 12/1/2014) those that I think are tourist/student bottle.

Please note: These were purchased prior to my joining this forum. All were bought prior to me taking a more serious view of learning about this area. So, please give constructive comments regarding, why this is a tourist/student bottle (if it is), and within this category, is it a good piece or not.

Hi Joey,

Here is the one I was talking about. Please give me assessment of this bottle, it is very important for me. This was originally planned to be the 2nd to the last bottle/trinket I present.

But, after looking at 4 important catalogs, your catalog 1987, and 3 other books. I can not find a similar one yet. It might be in one of the high priced one that is still being shipped. But, I am too curious, as all the information seems to imply it is real and possibly imperial or very high quality.

Please give me an idea of whether is it real, a best guess age range subject to future physical verification. And if possible an similar bottle from a past auction so I can have an idea.


And just for fun  ;D  Here is my attempt at writing in the style of auction catalogue (keep in ming, I am letting my mind go WILD! ):

A very rare single overlay glass Snuff Bottle, ???, of baluster form supported on a raised and slightly splayed (between overlay and body)  footrim.

A little over 4 cm tall, a little under 3.5 cm wide.
One chip at footrim.

The snowflake ground decorated in ruby red by the harmonious union of a four-clawed straw dragon and the three-feather tailed female phoenix with carved three taloned claws perched on longevity rocks.

As a four clawed dragon robes in the Qing dynasty are reserved for a prince of the 3rd rank, it is my humble opinion that this bottle was commissioned for such a person.

The quality of the carving on such a small body, ideal placements, and lifelike curves of the descending dragon bringing with it a flaming pearl to the waiting phoenix, coupled with the ruby red color, strongly hints at the possibility that this pair of bottle is for celebrating a pending marriage to a prince of the 3rd rank.

Due to the extremely small size of the bottle, I further offer that this pair is for the bride.


 ;D  Please don't roll off the chair laughing, this is my first attempt. I would love to find a similar one and study how it is written.

David

Hi Joey,

I played with the light setting some more and these should be better for the top and base.

David

Hi David,

Nice description for the bottle, altho I would say its a snowflake ground instead of the bubble suffused ground.:)

I would say it looks like a real thing to me, could be dated later 19th-20th, the stopper is a typical later stopper from 70s.

Sadly it has nothing to do with Imperial or high quality tho, you might not be able to find exactly same bottles on any serious collections, but you might  be able to some find higher quality ones of ruby red on snowflake overlay bottles. do some comparisons with those bottles, you will understand what is higher quality. But that is a good study bottle for new collectors, next time when you have another chance to buy a similar one, you can compare with this bottle.

Steven

Hi Steven,

Thanks,  :D I need to get the most bang out of my bucks. It is more exciting to note it like this.

I didn't think the stopper is original as the other one is a little bigger and have the exact same stopper.

I am actually confused at bubble suffused, snowflake and camphor... I just received the Bob Stevens, will it clarify that? I originally thought this is snowflake or camphor, but the catalogues seems to describe the same thing differently. I like snowflake more though... sounds much more poetic. So, will update that.

It will be great as long as it is real. But, I did have to buy it with the 100 sons, 100 ladies in waiting and a small enamel on metal to guarantee the sale will go through. She can't quite recall which ones, but she mention that a pair of bottle is a gift from the Chinese government to her husband when he first went there.

Thanks,
David

David,
I had imposed to myself to no further comment about your buying, because you seems deaf, but I can't resit. I am literally shocked by your following sentence:
"I did have to buy it with the 100 sons, 100 ladies in waiting and a small enamel on metal to guarantee the sale will go through. She can't quite recall which ones, but she mention that a pair of bottle is a gift from the Chinese government to her husband when he first went there."
Literally shocked.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

All the things I am posting are past buying... I had not bought any except 2 to complete the test round since I joined this forum's public side.

So, I would not say I am deaf to what everyone is saying... I did not even join the public forum or start reading and learning...

If you take that into consideration, are you still literally shocked?

Best Regards,
David

Dear David,
sorry for that, please apologize. I understood that you bought them recently, after all the advice.
My fault.
Kind regards
Giovanni

 Hi Giovanni,

Apology accepted... Whew... This is one time I am glad you misunderstood me, I was concluding that I do not belong here.

I wonder if this is why some of the people here, Steven and you are upset at me from time to time. I will need to include the wording in the trinket posts that these were bought before I joined in the future.

I have a lot of books to read, but perhaps only 3-5 more trinkets that are worthy of posting. So, I am limiting myself to 1 per week (this week is 2 post as I did said last week I will post the 100s bottle for Steven to see).

Or do you think it is better that I just stop posting and focus on reading?

Kind Regards,
David

Dear David,
it is good that you post, so you know what you have and others too knows what it is and to look at. But it will be better if you say that you bought it a while ago, just to avoid comments like my last one, which I believe you understand it was aiming to help you and not against you.
Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

I understand where Steven and you are coming from, regarding my past purchases and past state of mind/decisions. I have 2 kids myself, and if I don't care, I won't bother to get upset at them. So, thank you for trying to help me.

I will add that comment for future trinket posting.

The Stevens book is really good, but I think I need to go to sleep now. Have a great day.

Warm Regards,
David

Dear David,
     You nailed the description almost perfectly, but in my opinion the bottle is 1980s onward, not late 19th/early 20th C. as Steven thinks. The red looks wrong, the carving looks wrong, and the shape looks wrong.
Except for those three issues, a great bottle!  ;D  ;)
Keep studying.
Incidentally, 'snowflake', 'camphor' and 'bubble-suffused' glass, is all the same. The first two are terms used by dealers and collectors, the latter a more scholarly term and  meant to sound more scientific.
Best to all,
  Shabbat Shalom,
     Joey

Hi Joey,

 ;D  Thank you for looking at the pictures carefully and giving me your judgement, too bad it is another fake. No wonder I can't find it anywhere, and the dragon/phoenix looks different from the ones in the catalogue. My hope raised a bit after I saw a few photos of the Chi dragons in some of the catalogue...   :-[

From the point of view of a fake 80's and onward bottle, how would you rank it's workmanship? Compared to other modern fakes?

Except for a couple of jade bottles (not my first one, other people's), I have never seen a real antique snuff bottle. So, if you compare this one's workmanship with the past, does it even come close to a mid level commoner's glass overlay bottles after ~1820s ? Or is a mid level commoner's glass overlay bottle from that timeframe still better than this one?

Thank you for clarifying the snowflake etc..., I was starting to get really confused and thought there is something I am missing from the photos. Hahaha! No wonder I choose the bubble suffused until Steven corrected me.

I will try to write something interesting on the next trinket photo post  ;). Please correct me if I wrote anything wrong, I think it is a good way/practice to combine the different knowledges.

I think David's 1st Collection of Photo Enhanced and 80's Onwards Fakes is going to look pretty good for the layperson.  ;D Wonder how my 2nd collection will look like?

I am looking forward to the J & J book, it is in Kentucky right now.

Shabbat Shalom,
David

Dear David,
nobody told you that this bottle is a fake. It is not a fake, it is just a modern bottle, made for the tourist market, made for low budget market, whatever. A fake is better made than your bottle, it is trying to fool uneducated eyes.
BTW you started this thread talking about one bottle but at the end showing two bottles, and we continue discussing one bottle. You have two bottles, haven’t you?
Kind regards
Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

Thank you.

I finally see your point regarding honest bottle or honest farmer tools. I never thought of differentiating fake versus work of art in the style of snuff bottles. To me they were the same.

If you meant (in the past when we last discussed this), will I buy a fake with the intention to deceive? Then the answer to that question would have been "No, I will not buy a fake with the intention to deceive as I despise this kind of people.  But, I will buy a work of art in the style of snuff bottle and enjoy it as such and make it clear to all it is not a real antique."

Will I choose a honest farmer tool or a fake bottle with the intention to deceive? Then I will choose the farmer tool, even if I don't collect it, because I don't like fakes with intention to deceive.

Will I choose a honest farmer tool or a work of art in the style of a commoner snuff bottle? Then I will choose the work of art, because I don't collect farmer tools.

Now that I see where you were coming from...  :D  I got worked up for no reason... Sorry about that outburst (but I was also a little stressed out by the forum then).


Do you mean that during the 80's these kind of bottles were officially sold as modern tourist bottle? Is that why the cavity inside the bottle looks rough? (I don't have the neat tool you used (antique endoscope?) to look inside bottles, so can only use a 10x loupe to try to see some areas close to the opening)

Shouldn't a snuff bottle be counted as a snuff bottle if and only if it is made for the intention of using it for snuff? Or if relaxing the standard, then all bottles made before 1912 (around the time when snuffing fell out of favor or end of Qing Dynasty as a nice cut off point)?

I can accept older tourist bottles (around pre 1912) or internal painted from the old masters/artist from Qing Dynasty as snuff bottle. But, I have difficulty accepting bottles made not for snuffing and/or after snuffing fell out of favor as snuff bottles...

I can see them as work of art in the style of snuff bottle, but don't quite see how they can be counted as snuff bottles? Do people collect them as snuff bottle or as work of art in the style of snuff bottle?


Yes I do have another tourist "bottle" that is supposedly a pair with this one. I still haven't figure out whether it is a female chi dragon or a baby chi dragon based on the definition from Richard Li on Chinese Snuff Bottle Rebus  bottle no. 65. If I can figure out it is a baby chi dragon, then I can complete the story in one way. If I figure out it is a female chi dragon, then I can complete the story in another way.

It is also the last trinket I plan on posting, so please wait while I research the other trinkets and post them first.

 ;) Saving the best (in my opinion) for last is a good virtue I strive for.

Warm Regards,
David

Dear David,
you are posing a good question, to which I do not have an answer because I too often have the same question myself. Why some collect that type of bottles? I don’t know. I do collect bottles made for use except some special ones which clearly are objects of art (your one it isn’t in my opinion. Or better, to my understanding). A bottle like your one is, to my mentality, a non sense because nobody will use it today, and it is not art in the sense I understand it. To me is a souvenir object, a class of objects in general that I never buy. I don’t buy a model of the tower of Pisa or a model of the Qingming festival paint because such things will inevitably end forgotten in some drawer.
A completely different story is the category of inside painted bottles, which can be a piece of art. I said “can be” because not all them are.
All this is of course my personal point of view.
About the second bottle, I am referring to the second one you did post here. In your first post, we see images of a dragon bottle and a phoenix bottle. Now you talk about a qilong bottle. Do you have three?
Kind regards
Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

All these photos are from one bottle. The phoenix and dragon are on the same bottle, which is why I was so impressed with it being carved and polished on something so tiny.

The Chi dragon is on the 2nd bottle, which I would like to post last. The seller told me that the smaller dragon/phoenix bottle and the slightly larger Chi dragon with longevity character bottle are a pair. So, I am trying to come up with a story that will make them a pair, although they look different.

Please don't take my stories or description too seriously. It is a mental/research exercise to find and pull specific to the trinket information from different sources, understand and absorb them, combine them in my head, and put them out again in my own words for a specific trinket (but I am trying to copy the word/tone style of how some of the auction catalogue writer says them).

I recall seeing that on the important level catalogues, that when they have a pair that looks different (or a left/right side), they usually assign it the same lot number to sell as a pair. They will also have 2 separate descriptions, and within it stressing that it is a pair incase the reader did not notice the same lot number of different looking bottles. The bidders will then know that they are pricing/bidding for a pair of bottles and not a single bottle, otherwise the seller and house might end with a lower sale price.

 ;D Trying to follow them as close as I can, as I think that will allow me to read/understand the nuances of auction description better (especially since they are quite short/curt for the "unimportant" bottles that I will start out on).

It is also meant to be a little entertainment for Joey, and others that share my sense of humor.

Kind Regards,
David

Dear David,
     I was thinking that you could actually be a certain dealer in disguise, jerking us around by presenting yourself as a newbie collector of Chinese origin, since your BS-style of cataloguing this bottle was THAT good!  ;D
     I have got quite a lot of laughs from this description, and from comments and  questions you've posted, so thank you for that. And by all means, please continue in good health.
Shabbat Shalom,
    Joey

Hi Joey,

You are way too sharp, it's scary!  ;D

I tried to take on his tone, after reading his descriptions of some bottle.

I am glad you enjoyed it fully!

Warmest Regards,
David

Dear David,
   This weekend especially, I needed a few good laughs. Your stuff was a 'godsend', literally.
Thank you,
Joey

Hi Joey,

You're too kind, I am glad it helped and wish that everything will be better.

I will try to make the other posting similar to this then. I was going to make a cold hard scientific sounding one for the next, but I think I actually had way more fun trying to copy him.  ;D

Warm/sympathetic you're welcome,
David

Dear David,
    Thank you. My sister in law's cousin was praying in the synagogue in Jerusalem attacked by Islamic terrorists last Thurs.  He has multiple stab wounds from both knives and axes on his head and body; and the doctors say there will be brain damage. He's a 54 yr. old father of 10, who was busy praying in a small prayer hall in a very unattractive neighbourhood of Jerusalem, far from everything.
    Best,
      Joey

Joey,

Sorry to hear about the injury inflicted on your relative. I was quite shocked to read about the attack in our local newspaper last week.

Inn Bok

I am also very sorry to hear about your relative Joey...

Dear Joey,

My heartfelt wishes go out to you for your relative's fullest recovery.

Tom

Oh Dear........

Sorry to hear about the news..... Hope that he will recover the soonest

Pin

Hi Joey,

That is horrible... and so senseless...

Why is it so hard for people to be content with what they have and live in peace with each other?
 >:(

I hope he will pull through smoothly, and my heart is sadden for his kids and your sister.
David

Dear Inn Bok, George, Tom, Pin, and David,
   
           Thank you all for your prayers and kind words.
           The terrorists will not succeed in beating us; they don't seem to get that they just make us angrier and more determined to succeed in strengthening our hold on our Land.  They have been doing this kind of thing since the 1880s, when there were 90,000 Jews and 140,000 Arabs.
           Now there are 6.4 million Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. And their population is starting to contract because they aren't having kids, and ours is expanding, because we are having loads of kids. It's estimated that in 30 years,  there will be 9 million Jews in Israel, and about a million Arabs, of which 300,000 will be Christian (today, 160,000 are).
          We are praying that Howie and the other 9 wounded will have a speedy and full recovery, G-D Willing.
     Best,
      Joey

Shalu Shalom Yerushalayim... Hope it is used properly  :).
David

David,

i post this here instead of under the topic of ' snuff bottle books '.

This modern bottle has the usual Chinese rebus and carved characters ( yangzhou style ).

For sharing.

Inn Bok

David,

( continuation of earlier post )

Inn Bok

Hello Inn Bok,

Thank you for sharing this modern bottle with me, so far I can see

1) the white ground looks uneven as the reflected lights are distorted
2) Bottle shape is not of the flatten kinds.
3) Very crowded and no defined areas of sky, middle, ground.
4) the neck is not symmetric and does not have a defined consistent transition between the neck to the chest/shoulder. (Is this what Steven, YT and a few others were talking about?)

5) The tree still looks un natural. I actually figured out after reading a few more page of a book. The trees of modern day bottle do not observe the 4 branch off the main trunk nor do they follow the rule of having eyes/space distributed inside the foliage, and having the tips of the branch pointing to paths of natural growth. But, I think is one of the best modern carved I had seen (wood portion wise) with my limited experience.


How would you rank the carving of the characters?

Is this one consider a top level or higher level modern workmanship?


Looking at this one and the other modern ones, plus the museum ones. Is it safe for me to say that the red overlay of dragon/phoenix I have is a higher quality modern work or a possible later snuff bottle or medicine container?

Aside from the modern Hulu of double overlay (by the way, how tall is it?), I find it hard to see how the other 5 modern or near modern are technically more challenging or contain a better/sensible rebus or wishes (especially when you take size into consideration, mine is 4.3cm tall and 3.7cm diameter at widest).

Thank you and Best Regards,
David

Hello Inn Bok,

Looking at the characters of the modern one versus old, I think I see the difference now.

The character size of the old one, each one takes up roughly the same square. And the proportion of the sub characters (not sure how to say this in english) are balanced. They also use real seal script while the one you showed seems to be using normal script with a few likeness of seal script.

Why do modern ones (glass carving, stone carving, inside painting etc...), want to put so much carving on a bottle? Is it not better to focus on make one nature tree and a pair of beautiful creature or person, with the nice simple clean spacing, like the old ones?

I also do not understand, why they don't carve the trees, grass, mushrooms etc... more natural? Is it because they figure that it is just secondary to the animals or people?

Best Regards,
David

Hi David,

Your analysis is valid.

If you want to know about your dragon overlay bottle, you should not compare with Yangzhou overlay, because your bottle has nothing to do with Yangzhou bottle. You should look more similar ones with yours.

Here is a top quality ruby red on snowflake overlay, compare the carving and polishing, and color with yours. the design of Yangzhou bottle can be very simple elegant , while other overlay can be very sophisticated and busy, you don't judge other bottles with same criterias as Yangzhou bottles.

Steven

Hi Steven,

Thank you, for checking my thoughts/assumption. It is so nice to have you confirm or point out my errors.

I am interested in both Yang Zhou  and single color overlay in the area of glass bottle (plus one smooth surface).

So, I am taking the opportunity to learn from Inn Bok about Yang Zhou bottles as much as I can.

That pine tree is amazing! I love the way the limbs cross itself and the trunk, plus the roots. This one completely blows my "bottle" away.

Is this a top quality modern bottle?

Gratefully,
David

Hi David,

That is a top quality 18th bottle, most of the top quality bottles were made 18th. ofcoz some were made 19th as well.

In my opinion, the Modern bottles will never be able to get close to this quality, since the modern craftman don't have the skill and patience. Maybe inside painting industry is different,since the top quality modern inside painting bottles have been recognized and appreciated, so the top artists can making a living by painting bottles ,and developing the better skills and creativities in new bottles. But the modern glass overlay bottles have not been recognized and appreciated much, its only sold with little money compared with the efforts involved to make high quality bottles, so the whole industry is not growing,  ofcoz the better quality bottles will not be made or being made.

Steven   

Here is a simple little dragon bottle that is single carved glass overlay.  It is an early bottle that appeals to me. Hope you enjoy viewing it. 

Dear David,
    I just saw this.
Yes, used perfectly!
Sadly, Rabbi Haim (Howie) Rothman is NOT doing well. He was the worst injured of the 8 survivors of the attack (2 had died between my writing you all and a day later), but we are still praying he will improve.
Thank you,
 Shabbat Shalom,
 Joey

Dear Steven & Jo,
   Beautiful bottles! Thank you for posting them.
   Another problem with the modern bottles is the quality of the glass. The craftsman working with it knows it will degrade in 10-15 years, so has no interest in investing time in something which will be thrown out a few years later. So even if he/she was prepared to invest more time, 'for the art's sake', there would be no reason to.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Thanks Joey for additional explanation !

Also thanks Jo for sharing us a beautiful bottle, I personally like ruby red on clear glass more than snowflake glass, that is a wonderful example.

Steven

Hold Your Pony Mister!   :D   Joey, this is a bit of a generalization on modern glass snuff bottles.  Many of us here have some rather high quality contemporary (post 1950’s) and new (post 2000) glass bottles that are very well done and will never suffer from degradation unless dropped.
 
However, I will agree that many of the cheap glass bottles do and/or will have problems.  And yes, I even had a fairly nice imitation Malachite and Lapis glass overlay bottle that I discarded because the acid used sometime in the process caused deterioration of the overlays which began to flake off and crumble with time.

Charll   

Dear Jo,

That is a nice bottle  :). It is like a Ming dynasty 'ChiLong' body with a cute Qing dynasty Dragon head.

Cheers,
YT

Hi Steven,

That is a shame, but understandable... like so many other traditional arts and traditions. All dying out.

I assume this one is not Imperial. Then is this one a Hsin family bottle?

For reference purpose. If this one counts as 7/8 from a scale of 1 to 9 (imperial like YT's dream hulu bottle and Joey's eggplant bottle- maybe 9+ for that one-).

From your personal point of view, where will Inn Bok's artful modern hulu score? Where will my red dragon score? Where will a modern top single layer that can be bought brand new be now? Not from value, age, rebus sensibility,  etc... point of view. But, from the carve workmanship and the artfulness/likeness of the content.

Do most collector categorize bottles in the following way, instead of worrying so much about a date?

Imperial (pre Qian Long, during Qian Long, during Jia Qing/DaoGuang and then post DaoGuang)
with mid to late Qian Long and early Jia Qing as the pinnacle? (~1810)

Domestic Non Imperial (During Qian Long, during Jia Qing/Dao Guang, during Xian Feng and post Xian Feng)
with late Qian Long till early Dao Guang as the pinnacle? (~1840)

Export top grade commissioned and export mass produced.

Thank you,
David

Hello Joearp,

I agree with YT, it has a cute (and I will add naughty look) head. It is just amazing that they can put in human emotions onto all these animals face/postures or sometimes even trees/plants.

It makes this one so interesting to look at.

Best Regards,
David

Dear Joey,

Sorry to hear that.

I hope your sister in law's cousin is doing fine. My thoughts will be added for them tonight.

Shabbat Shalom,
David

Hello Charll,

Out of curiosity, if after I finish the current phase of studying and then decide that I would like to purchase a couple of modern overlay to enjoy (while waiting for real ones that I like to become available at a reasonable price).

Where can I find a good one like Inn Bok's artful Hulu or ones that will not suffer the fate of "cracking"? Will they also do custom work (like asking them to not put so much on a bottle, or to specify a certain rebus or person - I admire Guan Gong and Yue Fei the most.)?

Best Regards,
David

Hi David,

I really don't know if the bottle I posted is a imperial bottle or not, but it really doesn't matter if the quality of the bottle is that high lever, the bottle's value is not less than any imperial glass bottles, or even higher sometimes. collecting snuff bottle is different from collecting other antiques,  The Quality is the more important than it being  imperial .

The bottle I posted is certainly 9 of 9 score, if I have to put a number on Innbok,s and your bottle. regardless the age, I will put 6-7 on Innbok's without seeing the detail( since I can't see the detail of the carving based on a low res image),  and yours will be 4-5. ofcoz, that is only my opinion.

Steven

Hi Steven,

Thank you!

Finally, now I have something solid to compare to and use as a reference point regarding carve work. I think highly of your opinion, as artists have a different kind of eye/perception from most people.

Out of curiosity, what will be the most difficult technical part of the carving for the bottle you posted? Should I focus more on the overlay surface/side workmanship, or should I focus more on the grounds and the under carving to make the surface "pop"?

And which one is the most lively (crane, monkey, tree, rock, auspicious plants and fungus) or that you feel have a larger presence of "chi"?



Thank you,
David

David,
   Look at the quality of the background. It should be as smooth as possible. It is not technically hard to carve the overlay, or add detail to its surface. It is very hard to get a mirror-like finish on the background in between the bits of overlay.
   For example, take a Qianlong period  red overlay I bought at auction in London, Spring 1989, with an Imperial design of cash and ropework; the  ropework was very well incised with lines to look 'rope-like', but what made it great was the Imperial design and the superb polish of the camphor glass background.
   If a decoration is 'appliqued' on, the background polish is not important. This is when design elements are made separately from the bottle, and then appliques and bottle are re-heated and appliques applied to bottle surface, with molten glass 'threads' used to connect the appliques to each other. Most of these are late 19th C., and feature applique flower heads and leaves, with the stems done in molten glass 'threads'.
   When you look at an overlay, look at the carving's connection to the bottle surface at an angle. You will see that the cutting goes into the surface material, because it is impossible for the cutter to 'just' cut the overlay material. If the background is not cut into, it must be applique, not overlay.

  Hope this clarifies things a bit.
Joey

Dear Joey,

I need some more time to think and check my references, but I believe that clarifies a big point of confusion regarding detail points to weight for me.

Gratefully,
David

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative explanation Joey. Well done!

I agree... Great explanation Joey...

Dear Joey,

It is at least one order of magnitude harder to polish the grounds. I tried polishing wood and now totally understand the difficulty to have a smooth symmetrical ground.

I was weighting the ground way too lightly. In the future for overlay carved or hard stones with relief, I will rank the ground right after whether I like the design or not.

Warmly and shocked,
David

Dear David,
    Try to weigh ALL points before buying a bottle. When I look at a bottle, I always try to find reasons why NOT to buy.
   First, if I don't like it esthetically.
Then, if I do like it, but there is a problem, such as hollowing, or the finish of the surface, or damage, or a badly made footrim or neck or mouth, or age, etc.
   ONLY if it passes all hurdles, and I feel the price is not too high (up to 20% OVER accepted market value), will I buy it.
Best,
Joey

Guys,
   I'm happy to share whatever knowledge I've amassed after almost 45 years collecting snuff bottles. Kind people both inside and outside the field helped me, and it is only right to pass it on.
   My pleasure.
Joey

Dear Joey,

Thank you, I will take that to heart. And will seriously think about the premium trigger versus time.


Warmly,
David

David,

Sorry to have owed you some responses.

1. The size of my pink hulu bottle : 47mm high (w/o stopper) x 28mm ( lower half ) x 24mm ( upper half ).
    The brownish deer bottle : 69mm x 28 mm.

2. For many Chinese collectors, we use these three words to guide our collection :
    真 ( pronounced as ' zhen ' ) = authentic, not fake
    精 ( jing ) = excellent quality / craftsmanship, and
    美 ( mei ) = aesthetic, beautiful

    Of course, I pay my ' tuition fees ' as i try to apply the above guide in my snuff bottle collection, especially with regards to 真 ( both the dates as well as the author, and also in terms of materials ).

i will continue when I am back. have to see someone right now.

Inn Bok

Hello Inn Bok,

Please don't be, I understand most people are very busy. Thank you for remembering.

Thank you for taking the time to share the three words essence, I will think more on that. Each one is so hard, and to find a balance of that relative to budget and temptation of taking the current or waiting on chance for the next is even harder.

The pink hulu bottle is even more impressive at that size, no wonder you like it so much. I can't imagine how he/she was able to do it.

Warm Regards,
David

David,

To continue .....

Each of us has our own taste and our lenses to look at an object of art and craft. Also, our individual yardstick for ' excellence ' varies. Yes, looking at finer ones in the collection of fellow collectors will definitely lift up our own standards of ' aesthetics yardstick ', however, as Joey mentioned in his post, the last decision hurdle is whether I have the means and prepared to part with it for the that lovely little bottle ( especially in todays market for excellent snuff bottles ).

So one begins with his own level of 真精美，and upgrade as one moves on the journey of collection. The main thing is that I must enjoy holding that bottle in my hand or being destressed when I look at it and fonder it !!

Here is another piece of overlay bottle for sharing ( 55mm x 23mm ).

Inn Bok

Hello Inn Bok,

Thank you for showing me this wonderful bottle and for taking the time to share the poetic advice. I will prepare well first and then decide on a level to start at.

It have a lot of elements, but is very integrated and still feels spacious with the nice usage of emptiness between the far mountains and near scenery. These that allows freedom for my imagination, are close to my interest.

It combines the high relief and shading effect so nicely. The rock base is strong and water buffalo's head looks as if it is about to turn... the polish on the horn are incredible, the way it catches the light perfectly.

The ground looks different, is this what they call the "white lard" glass?

The layering of the ground (first photo, lower right side of the the mountain, and closet pine leaf to back of the water buffalo. Is that done on purpose to give a stronger feeling of depth while keeping the overall level when held in the hand? Or to hide the water buffalo when viewing the temple/rest area? The neck and the other areas of the ground are so nicely done, I can't think of other reasons.

I know the bottle shape is round, but will I be wrong if I say it was made in the 1810-1850 and is a top level?

I just realized something while looking at this bottle. To get the high relief like the rock base, that means that the overlay layer has to be thicker. Then it makes it a lot harder to execute the shading effect of thin layers for this darker color. Is this a correct consideration?

I see the 精美 in this for sure, is it also 真?

Grateful Regards,
David

Inn Bok- I very much agree with the three words that guide your collecting. These are very important principals for us all to keep in mind.  Thanks for the bottle you just shared, very nice indeed.

Inn Bok,

I have cut-&-pasted the three guiding principles you listed. Golden rules to be remembered. Thank you.

By the way, a beautiful bottle - the composition has good balance and real 'depth'.

Tom

David,

This are the two extra images as a continuation to the earlier posts.

( due to file size, only one picture at a time ! )

Inn Bok

David,

Sorry for the resolution and focus.

This bottle is authentic ( 真 )in the sense that the carver left her seal mark at the bottom of the bottle sent out in the earlier post. Incidentally,the carver is the wife of one of the Hebei Inside-painting Master, Zhang Ru Cai ( 张汝财 )。 I bought from her husband when he came to Singapore in the 90's to promote bottles by him and his students. So the overlay bottle was a 20th century piece.

According to Zhang, the glass color belongs to what the Chinese described as ' 藕粉色 ' ( color of lotus powder, literally translated ). i took it as a good translucent glass material.

Inn Bok

David,

By the way, the seal mark is in the form of a leaf, caved in low relief. It is difficult to capture the image.

Inn Bok

Hello Inn Bok,

Incredible modern craftsmanship from them working together (if they did).

Thank you for the additional photos, they are fine. Glass is so hard to take a photo of.

The cow herder is unnecessary and floats, in my opinion. I do enjoy the other 2 sides a lot.

Thank you for showing me another way to think of real/authentic/真. I need to consider this kind of real after I collect a small (3-9) first set of "of the period real". I want to have something that links to my roots and upbringing. I do not think I can feel this "link" with an item that I know or suspect is modern day work post 1920s.

It will be nice to have a small set of nice modern day bottle for everyday use, as a latter addition.

The bottle ground's texture/color looks so nice. Just like a couple shown in Steven's book.

Thank you and Best Regards,
David

Hello Inn Bok,

After a night's sleep, I just realized that you also taught/reinforce to me a couple more lessons.

1) Must check all sides/angle when looking at a bottle in detail, and add an additional 3 second glance for each side.

2) Need to be very suspicious when there are too many combination of styles and/or elements.

3) Never buy a bottle that have no trustworthy provenance (or advice) without handling it.

Thank you, this will help me a lot in the future.

Grateful Regards,
David

Dear David,
    These are definitely rules to collect by!
Joey

Dear Joey,

Greatest thing is thanks to Inn Bok, I do not need to pay to have this beaten into me!  :)

David

Dear Inn Bok,

Happy holidaying in Perth and thanks to your 3 words-真精美 journey of collections.

Cheers,
YT

It is rather hot during the day here in Perth. But evening is cooling though.

It is my first time all these years to spend Christmas in Australia. Usually I came over here during other seasons.

Inn Bok

Yes, David. But you can also spend 10 or even 20 seconds looking at a detail.  :D
Hell, go for a minute!  ;) 
 Remember: SPEND TIME, AND SAVE MONEY!   ;)
(Or spend even more money!)   ;) ;D
Best,
  Joey

Dear Joey,

Duly noted, 

adding a corollary "Spend time, better bottles that one won't regret"

;) you won't believe the amount of time and equipment I spend on looking at or understanding a detail you pointed out!

Mirthfully,
David

Hi Steven,

I just received a cable to mirror my notebook to my desktop, so I can run on notebook and view on the desktop monitor in full definition. Now I am able to see up close the red overlay you posted.  :o Was I surprised!

It is incredible! No wonder you rate it 9/9. I love the shading of the pine leaves and branches... and everything else, I count at least 3 nice layers of overlay glass thickness!

Very impressed,
David

Dear all,

Attached is a green overlay glass on snowflake/camphor ground. Family of chicken with 10 chicks.

I am quite sure it is an overlay rather than an applique as mentioned by Joey looking at picture 2 under the stem of the bamboo. The overlay carving dug into the base glass more than 20% leaving the whole bottle with many minute holes from all the air bubbles.

One surprise though is the four character Qianlong NianZhi mark. It wasn't mentioned during the sale or in the one picture I got.

Any comments or dating is very welcome. Thank you.

Cheers,
YT

Dear YT,

This is easy!  ;D I just need a 0.1 second glance check, and say totally agree with Joey! Even someone as stubborn as I, knows not to "gamble" on the 0.01% chance that he is wrong. Especially when the material is glass   :D !

But, kidding aside. I will take a look later tomorrow to see if I can figure out why Joey sees it as appliqué. I kind of used my eyes too hard today staring at that red overlay Steven posted, and some photos of jade in the book George posted.

Does the 4 character mark look warped? Like if you take a chocolate slice with pattern, heat it up and then place it on an edge of a flatten bottle shape. Then the words on the flat side will be "correct", while the ones that falls on the edge will look warped.  Kind of like those photo lithographed (photo enhanced bottle), where the sides will transfer as stretched out.

By the way, do you mean 10 chicks+ a hen and rooster? If yes, then I don't think it fits any rebus with chicken that I know of.

Kind Regards,
David

YT,
 
Yes, this is a layered green (cut cameo) on a snowflake ground/body.  It does appear to have a hen, a roaster, and 10 chicks as you indicate, nice 'rock and bamboo' and 'rock and something(?)' side panels, and of course an etched Qianlong seal mark.  I seen a number of these bottles over the years and all were of good quality.  Speculating a bit, it appears to be a style of glass overlay design that were, and maybe still made, from about 1970s onward.  I would speculate also that this style of bottle was coming from a single manufacturing arcade (facility) and it would be interesting to find out its location.   There is enough variety in the designs produced that this would make a interesting theme collection.

Charll   

Nice bottle YT.. Everything appears to have been very nicely ground, sanded and polished..  Would agree closely with Charll that it is likely post 1950..

 

Dear Charll and George,

Thank you for looking through. I like the carving work and thought that it was early 20th, just didn't expect the glass workshops to be so good in the 1970s.

I will look around for the other designs, I did buy them in a group but most of them looks quite badly made. Is this the batch of bottles that will crizzle and crack later?

Thanks again.

Cheers,
YT

Dear David,

I can imagine your eyes working too hard. ;D
Joey did not see this bottle yet. I'm just writing about the 'appliqué' term he mentioned previously.
The QianLong four character mark looks to be nicely carved.

Thanks.

Cheers,
YT

Dear YT,

Thank you for clarifying, somehow I misunderstood your original posting :D.

I did looked at it some more, and wasn't able to figure out why  ;D That is too funny, I almost convinced my self that all gouges next to the overlay and the area where base is a little higher under the overlay are all made to look like overlay! Or that this is a mixed overlay + appliqué for the fine details...

Kind Regards,
David

Dear YT,
   Good news/bad news time.  ;D

Good news: It is definitely overlay, NOT applique. Applique glass snuff bottles have MUCH simpler designs.
Think single stem flower, where flower head and leaves are applique pieces, and the stems connecting to the flower head and leaves are then also applied as molten thread. This bottle is way too complicated a design to possibly be applique.

Bad news: It is ca.1960-2000, as Charll and George already said, and may well crack, as the ones Tom has posted. The mark may be well done, but if it is ca. 1960-on, does it matter?  ;)
Best, and better luck next time,
Joey

Dear Joey,

That is both good news to me as I want to know the dating of the bottles although the cracking will be bad news in the future.

I bought quite a number of bottles without much research and bottle sorting is causing me a headache. The help that I am getting here is totally unbelievable. Both for the immerse knowledge pool in this forum and a learning curve for myself. 

Cheers,
YT

Dear YT,

I hope I am wrong, but your green overlay 'chicks' bottle looks very similar to one of my badly crizzled bottles, shown in an earlier post: 
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1588.msg18966.html#msg18966 (http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1588.msg18966.html#msg18966)

As you can see, my bottle also has a square seal mark (on right shoulder of lower photo). I never bothered to check the seal mark at the time I bought it, so not sure what it says. It's now too badly damaged to read anyway.

Photos at left are how the bottle looked when I bought it, and the ones at right show how it looked around 6 years later. It's even worse now!  :(

Tom

Dear Tom,

Yes the bottles does looked like its from the same factory. There are no signs at the moment and I will hope to let you know in 6 years time ;D

Thanks for pointing me to the link.

Cheers,
YT

Dear YT,

My bottle showed no signs of deterioration for the first year or two. At first the degradation was very minor, but now the bottle sheds a fine white powder, so I have to keep it sealed inside a plastic bag.

Fingers crossed they improved the glass-making recipe when yours was made.

Tom

Dear Tom,
    In what conditions was your bottle kept? If in the humid Bangkok air, possibly YT should keep his in a airtight sealable plastic box with silica gel to keep it dry.
    It might be possible to preserve it better with different humidity and climactic conditions.  Presuming that YT wants to go to such lengths to preserve a modern bottle like this.
 Best,
   Joey

Dear Joey,
     I kept it in the dark inside a compartmentalized drawer with other bottles. It was in normal climatic conditions for Bangkok (i.e. temp range 25-32 degrees C, humidity medium to high) year round. I only took it out 1-2 times a year, so didn't notice it had started to crizzle until well into the second year, or maybe even the third. But thereon after it went downhill quite rapidly. I only bagged it when fine white powder started to line the drawer, as if it was exfoliating. I didn't want it 'contaminating' the other bottles.
     What you suggest may have slowed down the process of disintegration, but if you have to go to those lengths to preserve a modern glass bottle it's simply not worth the effort, in my opinion.

Tom

Dear Joey,

I agree with Tom on the extra efforts needed for modern bottles.
All my bottles are kept in individual plastic bags.
Thank you for the ever accessible deep knowledge and stories.

Happy 2015 ahead everyone and good luck in all future hunts.

Cheers,
YT

Dear Tom & YT,
    I well understand the concept of 'diminishing returns', but sometimes an otherwise inconsequential bottle might have sentimental value way above its monetary or cultural value.
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Joey and YT,

My understanding is that the bottle deteriorates over a number of years not because of the climatic influences. Rather it is due to the manufacturing process of the bottle. Incorrect mix of the ingredients and the poor control of the cooling process that causes some build-up of internal stresses in the glass bottle. This manifests over time. I have a few IPB and overlays that suffered this kind of fate ! :( >:(

Inn Bok

Dear Inn Bok,

I agree with your point and it is only a matter of time before the cracks will form if they belong to this particular production.

It is a pity as some of these overlays are really attractive. Also some of the inside paintings that uses this period of glass produce is in danger too.

Cheers,
YT

Dear Inn Bok,
   You are most probably correct, but I thought that one might be able to slow down the deterioration. Or possibly, some days they got it a little better than others.
   Like the joke about not buying a car made on a Friday or on a Monday: On a Friday, the workers are looking forward to getting drunk and not paying attention; On a Monday, they are getting over their weekend hangovers.  ;) ;D
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

I am very grateful for all the words of wisdom that you have given in the threads, but there is, however, one point you make here that I am not sure what you mean.

You stated “ONLY if it passes all hurdles, and I feel the price is not too high (up to 20% OVER accepted market value), will I buy it.”

Do you mean by market value, the auction price including the commission, without the commission, or the retail price.

As I am sure you know, auction prices are notoriously unpredictable and can often be unreliable, they can go down as well as up, so how do you work out a suitable price for a piece?

Is the 20% over the market price simply to allow for a dealer's profit margin on the auction price?

Please excuse my ignorance and thank you in anticipation of your further guidance.

Kindest regards,

Paul.

Dear Paul,

     I must apologise about my lack of clarity.

     Among veteran snuff bottle collectors, there is an agreed 'scale' of value for each type of bottle.

     For example, in 1984 at the first LA convention of the ICSBS, I purchased a plain 18th C. Turquoise snuff bottle, the second finest Turquoise bottle I'd ever seen (the finest was an Imperial Palace Workshops bottle with an Imperial Yongzheng mark & period, belonging till 2012 to  Suzanne Ault, the late John Ault's first wife. It was sold by Robert Hall ltd., London in the last 4 years).

    At the time US$1,200-1,400 was the 'accepted value' for a plain 18th C. Turquoise bottle.  I  happily paid US$1,800 for this superb one (#35 in my 1987 Israel Museum catalogue). A number of friends honestly tried to convince me I'd overpaid and should return it. One dishonest person tried to because he wanted to buy it for himself! I enjoyed it till my friend Clare Chu sold most of my collection for me, in 1992-1995. It sold for US$18,000, and Clare received her 10% commission.

   I'm sorry I can't give you a scale of 'accepted values' for different types of bottles. I will ask some other veteran collector friends, and 'revert to you' (get back to you in Irish legalese! ;D ::) ).
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Hello Joey,

Thank you so much for your early reply.

Although I understand what you are saying, can you equate for me whether the auction price including the commission, or the auction price without the commission, or the retail price would be the closest to your 'accepted market value' or your agreed 'scale' of value. Or does the agreed 'scale' of value among veteran snuff bottle collectors fall below or higher than the examples I have given.

Also does the 20%+ relate to the love of the item or is it solely the investment over time factor?

Sorry to labour the point, but I need to understand the levels at which veteran snuff bottle collectors operate at to know whether I would be paying the right amount.

Kind regards,

Shabbat Shalom,

Paul.

Dear Paul,

      I was going to state that auction prices had no connection, but then realised that while individual items might have no relation, if one takes all the Jade bottles in an auction, adds up the total value and divides it by the number of Jade bottles, that does contribute to the accepted value of a type.

      Many times, retail prices are higher than the auction prices plus commission, but not always. Sometimes, a dealer is adversely affected by cash-flow or has a chance to acquire a fine collection and needs funds quickly; or other issues, such as friendship, or having got the object at a better price, and passing on the savings, contributes to a better price for the buyer. And don't forget that most if not all dealers are collectors at heart, and may be led by their hearts to 'help' a serious collector get something he really loves, at the expense of higher profits. It has happened to me a number of times, so I know it happens. And read the Stefan Zweig short story I posted in The Lounge.

     If you were to combine the prices charged by private dealers; the auction hammer prices plus commission; and collectors' guesstimates of a specific type; and divide the price by the number of bottles sold, you will get a good average price of a snuff bottle.

    I'm not sure it is possible to get more exact than this.
Best Wishes,
Shabbat Shalom,
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Thank you for your very detailed answer. You told me everything and nothing and I still trying to work out if I am any wiser.

But I do love your words.


Kindest regards,
Shabbat Shalom,

Paul.