Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Had a few dollars saved and decided it a good time to add some extra nice books to the library..

Four back issues, Arts of Asia magazines..

Reflected glory in a bottle: Chinese snuff bottle portraits by Emily Byrne Curtis

Inkplay in Microcosm: Inside-Painted Snuff Bottles, the Humphrey K. F. Hui Collection

The Art of the Chinese Snuff Bottle: The J & J Collection

Pretty excited to finally be able to add these particular books ! 

Nice George!! :)

It is quite a difficult task to get that few dollars saving when you are not base in the US.

Cheers,
YT

Dear George,
    In the Society, everyone jokes about how all Humphrey's 'Imperial Incised Inscription bottles are thought to be repros, especially HMM, who I don't usually agree with...
    You must let me know what you think of his IPSBs.
Best,
   Joey

Congrats! I was looking at the J&J book, those are a little steep for me right now. Please let me know if it is a worthwhile purchase, and which one (between that one and one of the Bloch collection by Moss) would be more informative to a beginner?

I think I can rule out starting with interior painted (except for one certain artist, I don't like the risk profile), jade or precious stones (too pricy), any modern bottle, any normal to lower quality "commoner" bottle. The others, I need to learn more.

 ;D But, I haven't rule out cheap trinket that looks like a snuff bottle to me.

So, please take that preference in mind when you give the recommendation of which one is better for me

Thank you,

David

Dear David,
      Do you have Lilla Perry's book? It is from 1960, but is a great intro to collecting snuff bottles.
I would recommend Robert Kleiner's book of the Bloch collection from 1995 (I think). Great information and very little BS. And a lot cheaper than either J & J or Bloch, which were both written by H.Moss.
Best,
   Joey

I do not have any of the Bloch Collection volumes..

There seem to be endless volumes via auction houses, and if I was to consider a Bloch reference book, not really sure where to start..  Would prefer references to enamel on glass/porcelain, B&W porcelain, and inside painted bottles.

Dear George,
    Try to find the one volume catalogue in hard cover by the late Robert Kleiner from 1995 (I think) at the BM (British Museum):
CHINESE SNUFF BOTTLES IN THE COLLECTION OF MARY AND GEORGE BLOCH   by Robert W. L. Kleiner
London, British Museum Press, c.1995.
ISBNs: 0714114650, 9780714114651
OCLC: ocm33421006

Joey

Thank you very much Joey..

Found it, and ordered !

http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Snuff-Bottles-Collection-George/dp/0714114650/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1416261653&sr=1-1&keywords=9780714114651

Hi Joey,

I will keep an eye on Robert Kleiner's Bloch 1995, thank you. It will be the first one on the next round.

I think I have a whole bunch of books and catalogues coming over the next 2 weeks, so I will try to digest those before I order that one.

I lucked out on the Lilla Perry book, and got a 4 th edition (Black cloth with 5 clawed dragon impression) like new with dust jacket for 19. A little more than 2/3 done, and she had some super nice bottle! Too bad that they are not all colored.

David

Hi David,

As you have not yet decided if snuff bottle collecting is a hobby you want to pursue, I think you can take a pause in book purchasing once you have Lilla Perry's "Adventures of a Collector", Bob Stevens' "Collectors' Book of Chinese Snuff Bottles", and a few auction catalogues.

The one by Robert Kleiner that Joey mentioned is good, as this covers a lot of the Bloch collection in a single volume. For your next step I would recommend the 2-volume J&J Collection by Hugh Moss, Victor Graham and Ka Bo Tsang. It's a bit pricey, but the quality of all the bottles, the research, the text and the photography are excellent. This collection has a different perspective from the Bloch one, which was largely hand picked for them by three Western dealers over a relatively short space of time. By contrast the J&J Collection was started in the 1930s, and put together by two generations of ethnic Chinese, applying Chinese taste.   

Tom

Hi Tom,

Actually, I have a feeling that I think I know where this is leading.  :D But, going to wait until I read all that I had purchased.

I would say 1/2 of what I bought can be easily applied to other areas of collecting Chinese art ... trinkets  ;)  ... or to learn a bit more of my roots. (Rebuss, Motiffs, Painting, Porcelain, Jade (Batholomew), Traditions) It is fascinating.

I am going to purchase both books after I am done reading or if I see a good valued one, as one of the value that I see in the old auction catalogues and books is to let me see what real ones look like. Hopefully, from collections and a time when there are not that much replicas/fakes/questionable items.

Thank you,
David

Hi Tom,

I was chatting with my mom while typing the other post and she called me an idiot for delaying a purchase I will do anyhow... So, I went ahead and bought those 2 sets and the porcelain books. 

Now, I put in the hard stop on books.  :P

David

Hi George, Tom, and Joey,

Just finished the Chinese Snuff Bottles by Perry. It is an amazingly well written book, the voice and love of collecting is amazing. Humble, feisty and sophisticated. It feels more like reading a story, when it is packed with a lot of useful information.

I like the information on "first hand account" of Chinese porcelain making, the Ku Yueh Hsuan section,and the structure of presenting the kind of bottles.

It is also really neat that she also include price information, which with a multiplier of 32 (5 decades, each decade purchasing power cuts by 1/2) kind of gives a rough idea of what that kind of bottle will cost if inflation is the only factor.

The only thing I wish is to make all the photos color, to take photos of the top and bottom.

David

Hi David,

I agree, it is a great book. What makes it all the more amazing is that back in 1960 there was almost NOTHING in English about Chinese snuff bottles. Apart from two or three very slim, privately published (and poorly informed) books written decades earlier, Lilla Perry's was really the first book in the English language dedicated to snuff bottles. Almost all collectors since have bought and digested this book when staring out, including myself in 1972. It is still considered by many to be the 'Bible' of snuff bottle books.

So you must forgive her for not showing pictures of the tops and bases of the bottles. Most auction catalogues back then didn't even include photos, so we were grateful to get a book packed with so many images, even in black & white!

Tom

Dear David,
    I love that book, and have done since I first saw it in Dec.1969, before my mom's best friend bought me a copy as a Bar Mitzva gift, in Feb.1970.
Wonderful book...
Joey

Hi Tom & Joey,

That is true, the condition of this book is so good, that I forgot it is almost a decade older than me! Then it is amazing the number of colored photos and how well they were taken.

Just saw the price on the dust jacket... 12.50! That is a lot for a book in 1964...

David

Hi George,

I just finished Chinese Snuff Bottle Rebus by Li. That one is good and worth every cent, I enjoyed his alternative interpretation of the number 29.

But, I don't quite understand the last page. Where he put in the imperial pendant and the brush washer, it does not add or give anything on rebus. All the other items in the book are used to teach about rebus or story or meaning, except for this last 2 item. Do you know why?

David

Hi Joey,

I received your "book" today (did not know it was a catalogue), I guess I ass-me incorrectly  ;D

You have/had a wonderful collection shown on the catalogue, it is very clean, reserved, and delicate (except for the organics and misc). I especially enjoyed seeing your plain glass, carved glass overlay, porcelain and minimally carved hard stone (especially the agates).

Have you ever asked (or if you know), when the bottle size of a carved glass overlay goes from 3 inches to 2 inches or a little less, how much harder is it for a craftsman to carve a similar design?

How about carving on a round versus a flat? Does that also increases the level of difficulty?

Thanks,
David

Dear David,
     Thank you. Where did you get a copy of my catalogue? I reckon, from the statement about Organic, etc., that you are referring to my 1987 catalogue.
     No, I never asked about whether carving a 2 inch high bottle was much harder than carving a 3 inch high bottle, or whether carving a curved surface was harder than carving a flat surface (Who would I have asked? Oddly enough, not a lot of Chinese snuff bottle carvers in Toronto, 1970-1973, or in Jerusalem since 1973!  ;D ), but interesting questions.
     My assumption would be that the smaller the harder, and curved surfaces are harder to carve than flat surfaces, but I never met a carver to ask. And never thought to ask YF or anyone else.
     I do know that to inscribe an 80 mm. square mezuza parchment (the parchment which is hand inscribed by a scribe, rolled up, and put into the mezuza box fastened to the top third of the doorpost of every Jewish home on the right side as one enters) is more than twice the work of inscribing a 120 mm. parchment.
Best,
  Joey

Hi Joey,

You are sharp! It is the 1987 one. I purchased it from Wonderbook that have a storefront on Amazon, they are in the DC/Metro area.

There are 3 more copies left, and one of them even have your inscriptions (the most expensive one).

Thank you for the knowledge on Mezuza(h?) parchment, I looked online and finally understand why those are so clean and well kept on a few houses in N. Carolina that I saw. I always thought it was a newspaper tube or some kind of community post box.

 :o  You don't know! Just kidding... I can't find anything on how to carve glass overlay, so was just taking a blind shot  :)


I tend to like to find out all I can before I ask for help, one of my teacher is like that. He will not answer unless you showed that you already researched first (if his mood is foul, then it better be some great research...).

I have 2 small red overlay glass bottles that I scavenge hunted for 50. One of them (2nd favorite of all bottle/trinkets, a little over 2 inches) was planned to be for my last photo post, and another (under 2 inches) is like 4 or 5 photo post more down the line of my trinkets. But, the more I look around the net and read the incoming stream of books, the more curious I am becoming. I still can not find a same one (on all these parts size, bottle shape, overlay carving). For a while I was thinking these are good fakes, as they are not flat. But, after reading Perry's book (pages on bottle shape) and seeing some nice older bottles that are not imperial. I am thinking there is a small chance...

I put the really nice things I stumbled into elsewhere, so will need to make a trip and take some photos of one of them for either this week or next. I can't contain my curiosity after seeing you wonderful plain and carved glass so is pulling that smaller one forward.

Thank you,
David

3 more left from 3 different sellers on Amazon. The most expensive one from Global Village Book in Hawaii, listed for 35 and have an inscription from you on 12/1/1990 or 1/12/1990.
David

Dear Joey,

I should have let you sign that copy you gave me in Bangkok!   ;D

Tom

Hi Tom,

It actually crossed my mind to get that one, but I figured I'll save 22 to buy another book instead.  :D   

I want to thank you again for pointing me to get some Important .... Catalogues. So, far only 3 came (including Joey's Museum one), and they are a great eye opener. There does seem to be a difference between the Asian collector versus American collector when I consider the books. But, not ready to let my mind go free yet  :D.

It's like having an early Christmas, every day there is 1 to 3 books or catalogue.

David

Hi David,

That was an inside joke from me to Joey. He generously gave me the book when we met recently, and offered to sign it, then said that because he signed most of his books, a "clean" copy was more scarce and therefore more valuable. So he DIDN'T sign my copy.  :(

Tom

Every day I get something in the mail related to snuff bottles, it is always like Christmas !  

Envy!! Hope my Christmas come soon  ;D

Hi Tom,

Did he really said that? That is too funny  ;D

That must be one of the few times that he was wrong.

My copy 12, the other 2 unsigned are 20 and 25. The signed is 35.

Next time when you see him, need to get his signature and maybe a drawing of a snuff bottle. Lol  :D


Hi George and YT,

It is quite fun, to open the door and see a package of book or trinket (in the past). Maybe that is why I like the cheap trinkets so much  ;D


David

Dear David,
   I found one on Amazon for USD 100, unsigned! I thought that is the dearest price for one. I didn't know they were available for USD 20± !  Whoops!
   But I know that I have given away over 1000 over the years, possibly closer to two thousand! (I gave 700 to the  Israel Museum, to sell for USD 10 each, so they were within people's reach; and 300 to the Honolulu Academy of Arts, when I had a show there; and must have distributed 1,000 + myself.).
   I have 30 copies left in Israel, and another 70-80 in Ireland.
   I have to correct a quote I gave Richard for my catalogues.
Best,
 Joey

Yes Joey,
I have to say thank you too for my copy. I'm just looking at the dragons book and learning to see b&w in another new light.
Previously I bought a few fakes and didn't like them at all.

Cheers,
YT

This one arrived yesterday.. What a nice book ! 

I had seen part of Peter Lam's info about Gan Xuan within an October 2002 Arts of Asia magazine, but this book goes into much more detail..

Although not the artists I was thinking about when trying to find an IP artist who also painted outside the IP medium. I was surprised to see that Ding Erzhong was not only an IP artist, but also painted scrolls, carved seals, bamboo, ivory, and inkstones.. Some beautiful examples..

Ze Zhongsan also drew, or at least sketched..There is an album that belonged to him, and shows several beautiful pages/leafs from it.

An extra nice book, and thrilled to finally have a copy ! 

Hi Joey,

That is so neat, to have something like that to gift out.

 ;) I must had lucked out on meeting a nice seller that charged me the price he most likely had paid.

David

Hi George,

I like your new portrait picture of that nice bottle you found.

Let's see...

Important Chinese Snuff Bottles Coll. of Alice B. McReynolds part II, 1985
I like seeing these older bottles with some price info for the timeframe.

Important Chinese Snuff Bottles Coll. of Stone Picking Studio, 1995
This one I really like, most of the bottles here are beautiful.
Especially the suhzhou chalcedony agates... can't even imagine how much one will cost now... Page 48-49, 20k-30k english pounds in 1995!
A very nice feature of this one, is that it have some top/bottom photo and maker's mark.

Chinese Snuff Bottles from the collection of....Marquess of Exeter, Hugh Moss
I like the information Hugh Moss wrote, and it is neat to have a nice collection by the Doctor from that long ago documented, and in a book. But the black and white photos are "killing" me! Some of the most beautiful bottles like E.16, G. 116, E.27 ... is in black and white!!!  But... at 20 dollars, I can't complain...

The Mustard Seed Manual, translated by Sze
I left it in my car so I can read when waiting for my kids.
But, I can't move beyond the section on 6 canons, 6 keys, 6 points, and 12?13 big no of painting. I already reread that 3 times, and each time something new clicked. Now I understand why I was so entranced by one of my elder's scroll of paintings and calligraphies. And if my feeling is right, it will let me have a better idea why I just like the clean simple look that feels alive (or have chi).

I try to skim and read some of the chinese words, it is odd, I can almost swear some of it sounds more like how to practice martial arts then painting.

I have a feeling this one will be a great book for me. But, it is one of those book that you have to read very very slowly to appreciate.

Too bad there is no inter"port"... nice if we can swap books physically over the internet  :D

David

This arrived today.. I do not even know where to start for describing what a wonderful set of books this is !!

So happy I decided to get these...  :D

Dear George,
    J & J is, to my mind, the greatest collection formed in the last 200 years. Superb bottles, a collection carefully collected, bottle bottle, over 3 or even 4 generations (Jimmy and the late Julie Li's grandfathers and fathers all collected snuff bottles, and possibly great grandfathers, as well.).

   Unlike the huge Bloch collection, amassed by a rich, ignorant, businessman without culture or breeding, who threw money at a small group of dealers, and bought himself a sh-tload of bottles, but could not have told you why one 'only' cost USD 10K and the other, 100K... and never tried to learn more, even after 20 years of 'collecting'.
 
    There is nothing wrong with spending one's money to collect. G-D Knows, that's how I have done it.  But I and most others, including the Lis, have invested great time and effort, as well as cash, in studying this wonderful microcosm of Chinese Arts from the Qing Dynasty.
   
    And it shows in the J & J Collection.
Enjoy this wonderful collection if only through the pages of the book.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

George where did you order the J+J Collection Book? You may have said earlier but i don't see.  I want to order one to study.

I found it on Amazon.. http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Chinese-Snuff-Bottle/dp/0834802899

Thanks George!

Hi George,

As I was reading Steven's book, a small insert (1/3 page)  fell out. I am posting it here incase if you or others do not have it. Whomever owned my book really took good care of it. This is the first time, I see a book this thickness where the owner seems to have prefolded each page to the front or back before reading.

Insert for page Xiii

Bottle Sizes. With only a few exceptions. the photos show bottles in approximately actual size. The significant exceptions are:

 Larger then actual size: 186, 224, 415, 429, 446, 478, 496, 554-56, 670, 738, 760, 762, 770, 799, 800, 802, 803, 944

 Smaller than actual size: 180, 189-91, 395, 412, 480, 686, 761, 763, 787, 921-25

You guys are right, this is a great book too. Story point of view, Perry's is better. But, technical point of view, I love this one (and the photos!).  It actually also got me thinking about Qing history more.

David

David. I think the Stevens Book is a wonderful resource .  I refer back to it often.   George I just ordered the J&J Book.  Thanks for the source as it saved a few dollars.

Excellent, and congrats on adding such a wonderful resource to your library !

Hi Joearp,

Totally agree, and enjoying reading his book and loving his photos.

Best Regards,
David