Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

My submission this week should suit traditionalists (like me) - a set of six bottles depicting part of the Kangxi Emperor's Southern Inspection Tour.

Whether they are copies taken from the Wang Hui's Scroll or just the artist's imagination, I'm not sure. But the quality of the bottles is very good, amongst my best, so I will show both sides from each bottle

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX1A.jpg&hash=9b78e9b54e8b1f9ce6e9b85c90ef9d20) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX1B.jpg&hash=c39b04e5c3dc97160ab2ad46e37c3b27)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX2A.jpg&hash=381e3d7ce8d5d58f78e3e6b8798af0dd) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX2B.jpg&hash=77cf82be7e1f5e83fb0c803cd3c46e11)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX3A.jpg&hash=08dcb75b0da2387cd72b9ac04edb5b75) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX3B.jpg&hash=fed16c47e54bf91964be792e32d51f0b)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX4A.jpg&hash=943f5c93d560f91df5d5d19dcab7eb17) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX4B.jpg&hash=a3ccc0b1f970cdcdb6b52aa981280a37)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX5A.jpg&hash=37b9e911a97bad247aba6f1c83d4b525) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX5B.jpg&hash=2475d2d4fae4849f5c16d9817cff2a0f)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX6A.jpg&hash=307c4b27e948f923299f28d79f1de760) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX6B.jpg&hash=b6619969a21c5d87537c0967dff0953e)

Here are two close-ups, taken from the 7th and 12th (last) bottles

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX4C.jpg&hash=7dd647f9823eb3fe1dbe46dc2168254e) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX6C.jpg&hash=4bf5955098c6bac1255f9c8b488e5170)

How the artist manages to put eyebrows, eyes, moustache and other facial and clothing features on a figure which is only 7mm tall, I don't know - these features can only be seen through a magnifying glass.

The writing on the first bottle and a seal which appears on the bottom of every bottle is given here

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX1C.jpg&hash=441fbdb53f4acf0c71b3d3b132a441f3) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX1D.jpg&hash=d98b7638a7ba7a7258d8020ced17ce5e)

In this rare case, I believe I know the artist and date - Lu Jianguang, 1999
In fact, I saw the artist at work in China Arts & Crafts Hong Kong in the early 2000's - a rare privilege.
 

Geoff,

I don't collect inside painted bottles, but after seeing these I am very tempted to start doing so! This set very much appeals to my aesthetic taste. I await responses to your question from some of the forum members with Chinese classical knowledge.

Thanks for sharing.

Tom

Great examples Geoff!  Can not believe the details....

Outstanding !!!

Dear Geoff,
are you sure they are not transfer print? The enlargements are not sharp enough to judge that, but at least the red seal looks surely printed to me.
Giovanni

Geoff,
   The bottles look great. I have one Lu Jianguang in my collection.
Joey

Hi Geoff

If  those  are  really  genuine  Lu Jianguang  they are  worth  over  US$ 4,000    each,  maybe  even more  to the   right  buyer

Last  time I saw a  genuine   Lu Jianguang  for sale   was  in  WXS's  Hengshui  museum  shop  and the  price  was  RMB 30,000 +

To save me  time ,  please    copy  all your  bottle   pics  to  a  data  file  and  give  to me  on a  USB  stick next time  we  meet  so I can    upload into  my  data base .

I  will create a  new   category  for  bottles  in your  collection. 

 The   letter " G"  is    still  free  in my    reference code   system !

Cheers

Peter

Thanks All

Are they genuine Lu Jianguang? Well, the man I saw in CAC when I bought the bottles certainly looked like the Lu Jianguang on your website Peter - maybe a double, but a pretty good inside painter also.

The seal is stamped through the bottle neck on to the bottom of the bottle - just like a seal, in fact. It's smaller than the bottle neck hole so a small stick bearing the seal will fit through. The bottles are quite definitely painted, not printed. When I have some time tomorrow, I'll do some more enlargements.

Geoff

Hi  Geoff

If  you  bought  the  bottles   at  CAC  (was  it  at  Star  House  where  CAC  hosted  the  monthly  artist  until  end  of  last  year)  and  THE  Lu Jianguang  was  there  as  visiting  artist-of-the-month    then  the  bottles  are  certainly  genuine.

The  only  trick  is  whether   the  bottles   were  actually  painted  by  LJG  himself  or  one  of  his  students  (or whether   the  bottles   were  some of  his  paint-n-sell-for- quick- sale quality .  I bought  a  couple  of  Huang San  bottles that  way  from  Huang  San  in person @ CAC  -  very   cheap  but  very  little   artistic  value )

You  were   10  ( 15  ? ! )  years  ahead  of   the  times   here  in HK !

 I only wish  that

a)   I had  been  where   you   were  then

b)  We  had  met  up   15  years   earlier  !

On the  other  hand  .... lots  to   say ....  so    meet   you in the    Pub  OK?

We do need  to  meet  up  again and   exchange  notes....

Cheers
Peter

Here are some more images taken from the above bottle photos, from the 5th, 6th, 10th and 11th photos above

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX3A1.jpg&hash=8ceca9b190411b9e5c8617a45fa757a3) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX3B4.jpg&hash=089683f5cc9c7543634f034f4fbe6ca7)
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX5A1.jpg&hash=d64fac5ab167e43a79715942723135f5) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX6A1.jpg&hash=e08016692a135df254d9f9f413e5634a)

Also two seals from different bottles plus a full bottom photo to show where the seals are placed

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX7B.jpg&hash=6f7a4fa00d09fb8c4b8bae7e5c32d279) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX7C.jpg&hash=e08d775027140de3028b306b38d8df13) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX7D.jpg&hash=042ec5d4d87c2c48fa4fcecf64bf6d39)

I think the seals are stamped using the same tool but different amounts of paint on the seal causes slightly different images.

Geoff

Now that I look at the detail of the figures given their relative size, I have to admit that there seem no real brush strokes and unevenness typically seen.  These IPB artists are masters at making the figures look normal at eye sight but once examined under a magnifying glass the detail is lost.  In your case, the detail is almost too perfect to be painted.  In any case, nice bottles, but I just can not be sure, to be honest....

Sorry if I cast some doubt on these.  It does NOT take anything away from liking them, a lot....

Dear Pat,
with the pictures provided up to now, I agree with you. In my opinion these bottles are not painted. To be sure, we need more detailed pictures. In particular, more sharp.
What I don't agree is about liking them even if printed. Sorry but, if printed, I would not keep them. Matter of my mentality. ;D
Kind regards
Giovanni

OK, I'll show them to Peter for his opinion.

Geoff

All,

I am intrigued by the suggestion that these are printed images. Surely, if the 'artist of the month' was ensconced at CAC, demonstrating his skills, and these bottles were sold as his products, then he could not possibly have been selling anything but genuinely hand-painted bottles.

Tom

I would hope so

Geoff

Tom

What we (at least Giovanni and me) are saying is that there is a possibility that these were printed.  Only a high end magnifying glass or a high resolution picture can confirm or refute this, or as Geoff is suggesting have a second opinion by Peter, bottles in hand.  

I have never (yet) seen figures (and so many) of 7mm max height painted with this level of detail.  But as I said, I can certainly be wrong and happy if I am.  What also intrigues me is the (almost) mono choice of dress color for all the figures, but ofcourse they are uniforms.. Just my point of view...Would love to hold these in hand!

Dear all

I am following this thread with much interest.

Having met Master Lu Jianguang on a few occasions and collected several of his bottles, I am sure these bottles are painted and genuine. In fact, Lu is a talented inside painter and is good in painting many different subjects such as landscapes, portraits and figures. His calligraphy skill is also one of the best in the Ji School. Some of you may recall my earlier postings of some of his bottles under the Inside Painted Bottle board.

Regarding the numerous figures painted, it is absolutely possible. If any of you have a chance to take a look at some of the earlier works of Master Li Kechang from the Shandong school, you will get what I mean. He is well known for painting very complex subject with many minute figures in his bottles.

As for the choice of the dress colour, this is a reproduction from an ancient scroll and the artist is just copying the colours from the original painting.

Just my observations.

Regards.


Richard

Richard

Great to hear that (and I am sure Geoff too).  Thanks for your point of view. 

Richard,
    Thank you. I myself felt they were 'right', but I have a big problem OKing stuff over the net.
Best,
 Joey

Thanks Richard

Peter was able to view these bottles today and confirms they are inside painted not printed.

He was also able to make a super-close-up photo of bottle 7 above (a much closer version of the close-up photo which I supplied of bottle 7) and here are two figures taken from his super-close-up

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX8A.jpg&hash=f4fe9ed2f89baee368f7a5ec85ae8726) (https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoffwelch46.com%2FKX8B.jpg&hash=10b88761dcfab07bc919950515a88914)

You can see these figures as the ones in blue robes in the top left row of my own close-up of bottle 7.

Thanks Peter for these - I think they clearly show painted figures. I will have to get a better macro camera.

It is worth noting that the bottle images in my first posting above (85mm tall on my screen) are larger than the real bottles (75mm tall) and the figures I have shown above from Peter's photo are actually less than 3mm tall.
I can understand why they may have been thought of as printed not painted.

Dear Geoff,
I am really happy to have been wrong, thank you for the new images. Sorry if I have worried you with my false alarm. You have surely masterpiece bottles there, congratulations.
Giovanni

No problem Giovanni.

I have learnt new things and will buy myself a better macro camera - my birding equipment is more designed for long range photos. And Peter and I had another excuse to meet and chat (no excuse really necessary but it was good to meet again).

And I appreciate the artist's skill on those bottles more than ever.

Geoff

Happy to see this and happy for you Geoff!

Hi  Geoff, All

Yes  today   Geoff  called  to my  home  with  his   6   x  Lu Jianguang  bottles

I can definitely  confirm  they  are   really  hand  painted.

We did the  classic  test  which  is  a   super  close-up  photo  in Macro mode (  3MB  pic) of  a  tiny part  of the  bottle,   then    blew  up the  pic   with  my  computer  a  couple  of  dozen  times.  This  method  beats  the  best  magnifying  glasses    by  a  very    long way    (  32  x  power  is  the  best   magnifying glass I have  : I reckon that the  macro  photo /  computer  blow-up  method   was   approaching  150 x  magnification)

Even under    a  good hand-carry  magnifying glass   (  8  -  16 X )  it's  very  hard to  spot a  photo-fake :  I know  because  by chance  I   once bought  one  such  fake  ( see the very  long thread  elsewhere  on the  Forum )   and it had me  - and the  dealer  who sold it to me  -  totally fooled. 

It  was  only  Pat who  alerted  me to    the  give-away    dark brown  area  at the  base  of the  picture ... and  then  I   gradually  dissected the  bottle , scraping  away the photo-film   in places. 

A  photo-film  bottle  goes   fuzzy  under  super - high power  magnification.  But   in a  real   hand  painting one can  distinguish the  individual  brush strokes   - and  , as  Geoff  rightly  pointed  out  - the  super-tiny   figures  on his  bottles  -  barely a     couple  of  mm   tall  -    turn  out to be    quite  badly / crudely  painted   under  very   high magnification  .

That's not to  say the  painting is  actually  bad ...      far  from it  !  It's  a  miracle that  anyone  can paint  tiny  men on  horses  only  2  mm  high  and   still   fill  in the  detail ,  down to arms, legs,  eyes...  mustaches    !    See the  couple of      close-ups   Geoff  posted  below    which  were  from the  macro pics  I  took   today

Bottom line ,  Geoff  has a  real  treasure   in his  collection ! 

Also,  given that he bought the bottles  from CAC   when  Lu Jianguang  was the resident  artist-of-the month  in the  late   1990's   it's  inconceivable that  CAC /  Lu Jianguang   would have  fobbed  off a    fake  photo-print set of bottles.

Lu Jianguang is  one  of  the  most respected   Ji School  artists.  I  never  met   LJG   in person,  yet,  but I  do have a    tiny    1 inch high   snow scene  LJG  bottle  ( see  pic  attached) that  I  bought   via  Mr  Tai,  Hop Wah  Antiques,  who used  to  run the     IPB  shop in the Ocean  Hotel,  TsimShaTsui.  He  had the bottle  in his  office when I visited  him  a  few  years  ago    long  after  he  shut  down his  IPB  shop,  and  he  sold it to me  at the  original  marked price  of   HK$5,000  from  1997 ( ! ) 

Of  all the  bottles  I have, this  one  has the  narrowest  neck of  all :  only  4 mm   diameter.  The   detail  is   exquisite  and   I reckon it's now worth  at least   US$3,000 + , probably  more

So I estimate  that  the   bottles  Geoff  has,  which  are  much bigger ( i.e. "normal"  size)   and  painted in  incredible  detail  are  easily  worth  US$  5  6  K  each, and  as a  set of   6   they are  worth   at least  US$50- 60,000   to  a  collector  of  discerning taste.   Probably  very  much more  . 

But  the  best thing of  all  was  meeting Geoff  again   ;D

He's the  first   real  MIPB  collector I've  got to know  in HK   and it's all due to the   Forum

THANK YOU  GEORGE !   :)

Geoff and I  now  plan a  couple  of  days  bird  spotting  on  the remote  Po Toi  Island  in a  month  or  so

Can't think of a   more  congenial  way to  spend a  couple  of  days.

Also  we  plan a  detailed  study of  every   shop  in Hollywood  road  to see  if anything has   changed  re  MIPBs  since  I did the  same thing  about 3  years  ago  ( at that  time -  zero  for  MIPBs   : only   genuine antique  IPBs  for  sale,  plus  a  few   highly  over-priced  junk  MIPB  bottles)

Cheers

Peter

PS :    I'm now  about  half-way  through re- arranging  my collection  following the   epic  8 - day  photo- shoot  and  a  super  -clean of  all my  shelves  ready for the  ICSBS  later this   year. Also, for the  first time, I'm  digging  out  all the   300 +  little  wooden stands  I mentioned  before  and  matching them to the  bottles .  Great   fun ! 

And - honestly  - it  looks like a   a  complete  new collection !  Every bottle  shines  and  gleams in the  spotlights  installed  in the  shelves.

That to me  is  THE  beauty  of  IPBs  -  they are  just  SO  beautiful  to look  at  ( which is  why I cannot  possibly  imagine  locking them up  in  boxes  for  99.9% of their  lives  : they  deserve to  be  admired and  marveled  at   24/7  ) *

I now  recall   all the   fun I had  as a kid  with my  matchbox  collection ( also  miniatures !) ,  arranging and   re- arranging them  in  little   shelves  in my bedroom.  Guess  I'm a   miniature - collecting  junkie  !

I mean  actual  actual  matchboxes,  not  the  match box  miniature  toys. 

In the  old  days ( 1950's)    pre-lighters, every  matchbox  was  a  little   work  of   art,  and I  had  some  boxes  going  back to pre  - WW 2,not to mention  little   Spanish  leather  boxes . My  matchbox  collection  is  still   at  home,  in a     suitcase

BTW:  for those  of  you   who  have  visited  my home,  you may have   seen   my  mini  collection of  model cars  and  steam engines. 

 The  cars  are  1: 18  scale  made  by  CMC  Models  :  http://www.cmc-modelcars.de/en/home/
-  a  German / Chinese   JV   company  (the  models  are  all made in  China)  .   They  are  incredibly detailed   and  the  best   quality / detail  available   commercially in the    whole   world   (they each  have  over   1,500 - 2,000  individually-made   parts) . And  they  are   also   super- reasonably    cheap !   Typically  only  US$400, which  is  less than I pay these  days   for  a low- grade MIPB. 

But the   steam engines  are  the  creme- de- la- creme,  because they are  not  electric : they  all  actually  run on real   live  steam, even the  tiny  00  scale   engines .....   now that  really  is a  miracle  of  miniature  engineering !

*  Ask me  over a  beer  in the   pub  what the  " * " refers  to  ....

Wow, what amazing bottles!

I looked at this thread again just now, and agree with Keith , "Wow, what amazing bottles!"
 ;)
Joey

Hi All

Yup !    Those  bottles  of   Geoff's  are    THE   REAL  THING

I  have  no  idea  how  to  value  that  set  of  6  bottles ,  but  I  stick to my  earlier  guess  of   US$ 50 -60K     for  the    set of  6     to   the  discerning  collector,  particularly  with the   CAC  provenance

Indeed   :  a  real  treasure !

GEOFF  :  Did  you  keep the   CAC  receipt ?   I  always   keep and  file  my  CAC  receipts  as   provenance

Cheers

Peter

Thanks all.

I think these are the star bottles in my collection BUT I love every bottle I have on display and just can't avoid looking at them every time I pass them in my study!

Humans have a passion for collecting things and good quality IP bottles are so beautiful to admire and respect the skill that goes into making them.

Hi  Geoff

Amen and  AMEN

I  asked   George  to   re-instate   Zhang Keqin's     totally  amazing   cat   bottle  pic    for   October /  November    because   I  intend  to  use  this  bottle  as   an  example   of   the    BEST   OF  THE  BEST    at  my  Xian   presentation    if  I  can  somehow  slip  (sneak)   it  in .......   

After  that,  the   side  bar  is a   free   for  all  au  George

Cheers

Peter

PS ;  I'm  in  Europe  3 -19   July  (fixed) ,  but  after  that   in  HK  except  for  occasional      trips   to   China    week by  week