Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Public Forum Categories and Boards => Glass Snuff Bottles => Topic started by: joearp on February 06, 2014, 02:57:40 pm



Title: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on February 06, 2014, 02:57:40 pm
Would like the opinion of the group on this bottle.  It is from the Yangzhou School and the overlay is purple.  I have not seen a purple overlay before from this school.  It is a soft purple color. I have a lovely Yangzhou bottle with the traditional light brown overlay.  I have been through all the books and data I have, trying to find a purple overlay with no avail! I wondered if any of you have seen one with a purple overlay before. This is a pretty bottle, not as detailed as the one I have, but I am considering making an offer on it.  Tell me what you think!!! I am appreciate your opinion.


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Steven on February 06, 2014, 03:54:45 pm
Dear Jo,

A wonderful Yangzhou bottle, you need a better stopper for such a beauty:) the color doesn't match your bottle so well.:)

Steven


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on February 06, 2014, 04:05:11 pm
Thanks Steven! You are right, it does not showcase the bottle!   Any ideas on what you think might be attractive and add to the overall appeal of the bottle.  Jo


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Steven on February 06, 2014, 05:01:52 pm
Some thing like this will looks great on your bottle, but you don't need collar, since there is a layer blue overlay on the mouth.

What do you think?


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 06, 2014, 07:12:24 pm
Dear Jo,
     I am afraid that I have never seen a Yangzhou seal school bottle in purple.
I would beware.
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Steven on February 06, 2014, 08:43:06 pm
Dear Joey,

It could be the camera didn't do the color right, it should be blue instead of the purple.:)  you can see the background is off white as well.

Steven


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 06, 2014, 08:46:40 pm
Dear Steven,
    Jo says that the overlay is purple. So I assume it is.
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: OIB on February 06, 2014, 09:18:32 pm
Jo,

It is interesting to see your bottle with purple overlay.

I am trying to compare the color of the rim of your bottle and the one i am posting for sharing. I believe mine is a blue overlay though the color density is not consistent. In some spot, it appears purple to me. Your comment, please.

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on February 07, 2014, 08:10:45 am
Yes- It is definitely a light, delicate purple not blue.  This has been my concern, as this is the first time I have seen this color. Thanks for all the wonderful input.  Jo


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: richy88 on February 07, 2014, 08:22:29 am
Hi Jo

Nice bottle. Although purple colour is not commonly used as glass overlay, I do see examples before.

Regards.


Richard



Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on February 07, 2014, 12:24:05 pm
Just curious Richard, have you seen this color overlay on Yangzhou School Bottles, or other types of glass bottles?


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: richy88 on February 07, 2014, 07:31:19 pm
Hi Jo

It is a Yangzhou School overlay bottle like yours. Just that I could not remember exactly where I see it.

I will try to search for it and will post a photo for comparison if I can find it!

Regards.


Richard


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on February 08, 2014, 03:44:35 am
Dear all,
forgive my ignorance, I have no idea about the meaning of Yangzhou School. Are all overlay carved bottles Yangzhou School or the bottles seen above has something peculiar? If it is not too difficult to explain can you give me some clue?
Thank you in advance
Giovanni


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: richy88 on February 08, 2014, 04:31:18 am
Hi Giovanni

It is believed that such glass overlay bottles are made in Yangzhou city and hence it's name.

The characteristic of the Yangzhou glass overlay bottle is usually a thin layer of overlay carved in low relief on an milky or opaque white background. Although clear transparent background examples are also available but less common.

The subject matter is usually scholar in nature and often also carved with seal(s). It is therefore also sometime know as the seal school of glass overlay. Also, most bottles are carved with mock ring handles on the sides.

Here is an example in my collection that has all the above characteristics.

A Yangzhou overlay bottle of rectangular form with rounded shoulders carved using a single sepia brown overlay in low relief. One side carved with a lady immortal standing over a cloud holding a hoe and basket of flowers over her shoulder with an inscription Jiashen Eryue which corresponds to the second month of the Jiashen year (1824). The other side carved with a boy holding a branch of peaches amidst various objects with a bat flying above. The sides carved with elongated mock ring handles of the same colour.

Provenance: The Reif Collection

This bottle is unusual in that it is carved with the date.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard



Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush on February 08, 2014, 05:40:43 am
Dear Richard,
thank you very much. I knew those bottles as "seal bottles" in fact. I only have one and I suppose that I have already shown it here but I am not able to find it by now. Later I will search for it, if not posted I will do.
Your bottle is a fantastic one, and being dated it must be really rare.
Thank you again
Giovanni


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on February 08, 2014, 10:51:17 am
Fabulous Bottle Richard!  Thanks to all for your input.   Jo


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: George on February 08, 2014, 02:53:44 pm
Just want to say have been following this topic.. Really beautiful Yangzhou bottles !


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 08, 2014, 03:38:46 pm
Guys,
   Richard's last bottle looks genuine (ie., ca.1820 - 1880). The purple ones are modern, 'in the style of'. Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Steven on February 08, 2014, 11:20:01 pm
Dear Joey,

You might be right about Jo's bottle, but I will say Jo's bottle still can be discussed, the rest of it look right except the color, I would like to see the base rim and a close up of carving.

I have seen very good Yangzhou style copy, can fool some serious collector easily, but if you look closer on the carving, you still can tell the difference, the old one even with shallow overlay, you still can see the dimension out of it, the modern ones look flat somehow, no depth feel. so overall, I will only say the bottle might be questionable.

Steven


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on February 09, 2014, 08:59:25 am
Steven- I do not have the bottle, it is one that I was considering purchasing. My concern was the colour all along. Thanks for your comments.  Jo


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on February 09, 2014, 02:33:47 pm
Steven,
     You are correct, the carving was very good, and if it had been in a shade which was genuine, like ruby red or mustard brown etc., i would have had a bigger problem saying it was wrong.
      But when trying to decide if a specific object is genuine, it only needs ONE detail being wrong to guarantee you shouldn't buy it. One doesn't ignore anything which can take it out of the running for purchase. Even if almost everything is 'right ', it might not be.
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: owly on March 26, 2014, 06:06:09 am
Forgive my intruding. After going through the entire thread I saw some uncertainties in some postings about the making of different overlay bottles. I attach a page from my new book on snuffles that will show different rawlings in different stages of making a bottle. I hope you can read the text since I had to reformate it several times.

Secondly I like to refer on several editions of the ICSBS journal where Vanessa Holden has nicely published how to recognize a modern (or falsely declared antique) bottle. Also, there you might find a contribution on Yangzhou bottles (new ones versus fakes). Perhaps you can find it on snuffbottle.org also.

A fine ne day to all of you


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: owly on March 26, 2014, 06:12:25 am
Sorry, forgot the attachement to my posting

owly


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on March 26, 2014, 08:56:19 am
Thanks so much!  I look forward to studying this information later today.  Jo


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on March 26, 2014, 09:14:18 am
Dear Ulrich,
      You are not intruding. The whole reason for the Forum is that we share knowledge with each other.

      But, you use terms that confuse me. What are 'rawlings'? And I have never heard of 'snowstorm' glass; 'snow flake', yes.
      And no offense, but 'snuffies' can be a tad cloying.
      Also, you don't mention that a certain percentage of glass bottles were blown. Not ALL were carved and hollowed out.
      Although, when blown bottles are enameled or overlaid, they can collapse when being further worked (I don't know if you remember the famous 'enameled milk glass snuff bottle of collapsed form' Robert Hall illustrated on his full page ad at the front of the Journal  of the ICSBS one time.
      Most of us got a really good laugh out of it. I think it was in one of the spring issues, about 10 or 15 years ago...
      We are agreed that Vanessa, who is very sweet, and whose parents I met in Hong Kong in Oct.1978 at my first ICSBS convention, wrote very well.
      But she didn't, to the best of my recollection, add what I call 'the Natie Katz rule of thumb', which I wrote in the post before your first posting on this thread: "If there is ONE detail that is 'off' (not right), you should NOT buy the bottle in question.
      I here add the adjunct: Unless you are so knowledgeable that you are sure it is all right, the off detail notwithstanding.  HOWEVER, one's knowledge can jump up and bite one on the posterior, on occasion!

     In late Jan.1988, I was privileged to meet Belle Schoen, the daughter of one of the truly great Western collectors of Chinese snuff bottles in the 1920s to 1960s, Martin Schoen. He is referenced in the great Lilla Perry's book on snuff bottle collecting from 1960.
     I bought 4 bottles from her at the time, one of which was a multiple colour single overlay on milk glass, in the shape of a flattened aubergine (that is an eggplant to North Americans  :D), covered with assorted flowers, and with a Qianlong Yuzhi (Qianlong by imperial Command Made) mark incised on the curved part of the bottle where one would expect to find the base (There is no base, and the bottle either lies on its side, or is stood up in a wooden base).
    It was superlative because of a number of reasons: 1.the carving was superb - there were at least 9 flowers, and each was identifiable as to its type, complete with foliage; 2.all the colours were the correct shades for the period - and the correct colour for each flower and shade of green for each type of foliage; the provenance - Martin Schoen, who purchased bottles between 1921 and his untimely death in 1963, and illustrated in a catalogue for an exhibition in NYC in 1950-1952, so it had to have been made prior to 1949 when the catalogue was produced. In point of fact, it was purchased by Mr. Schoen in 1937 from Yamanaka & Co., a big Japanese dealer of East Asian antiques in NYC between 1920 and 1942 (when they were forced to close by the US government).
    The problem was that the mark was 'wonky', to use the term beloved of English collectors and dealers of my acquaintance. It was beautifully incised on the 'foot', but the 'Qian' of Qianlong was in kaishu (standard Chinese script), while the '-long Yuzhi' part was in zhuanshu (archaic script).
    I probably should have left it, but it was SO GOOD, and the provenance so good, and it was illustrated in a catalogue of Martin Schoen's bottle exhibited in NYC in 1950 or 1951, that I bought it. And at US$1,200, it seemed worth the risk.
    The more I held it, the better I felt about it, the mark notwithstanding. The late Robert Kleiner, when I showed it to him at Sotheby's London, where he was still working at the time,  commented on the mark, but then said, "bottles like this, the longer you hold them, either get much better very quickly, or much worse very quickly. This is getting much better indeed!"

    I had brought my 6 new treasures (the overlay; another glass overlay a Yangzhou seal school example; a Ma Shaoxuan in quartz with the Bai Sui Tu subject on one side, and the two sisters reading on the reverse; a superb 18th C. Black nephrite jade with the white skin on one side carved as a monkey on a horse's back, reaching for scrolls of wisdom in a pine tree's branches, the reverse with a superbly incised inscription in the black stone; and two of the three Schoen enameled bottles on the page in Mrs. Perry's book, the superb Qianlong mark and period Imperial black enamel with the peonies and the enameled Republic-period porcelain of the little girl with her dog and her flower basket; the latter two she had graciously agreed to sell me a month later, while I was still in North America.) to show my friend of 10 years.
    Robert's late father, Bob, asked to see the bottles, and got Belle's contact info out of me. He went directly over to NYC by Concorde, bought the bottle he most desired, a millefiore enameled copper bottle, also illustrated in Mrs. Perry's book, and returned by Concorde the same day!
    I went back in June, and bought another 46 bottles, and the late Hilde Schoenfeld bought about 30( I had offered my best friends in NYC the chance to go with me to Belle's, so she could sell as much as possible, which was her wish. Bernie Wald was hesitant, and didn't show up. Hilde was anything but...).
  
   To return to the bottle with the wonky mark, when I was selling most of my collection to help fund the restoration of my late Georgian country house and estate in Ireland, and in order to concentrate on my three favourite types, white nephrite jade, inside painted, and  underglazed porcelains (mainly blue & white),  I got rid of most bottles through Clare Chu (who was then Clare Lawrence), but I traded that bottle to Robert Hall for two Ding Erzhongs in glass; a Zhou Leyuan in quartz, and a superb Daoguang Imperial mark and period underglazed blue & white porcelain landscape subject bottle, and the bottle made its way to George Bloch's collection. In fact, it was on the cover of his glass volume.
   After 18 years collecting (in 1988), I made an educated guess. And trusted my instincts. I DON'T recommend it to relatively new collectors like Jo or Steven (though Steven has a MUCH better eye than me over the internet), because a fluke like mine with that overlay is a one in a million shot.
   Hope this will clarify things (though it might not..  ;)  :D ).
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: OIB on April 10, 2014, 02:35:49 am
Richard,

In one of my meetings with Dennis Crow who passed by Singapore in 1994 - 95 ( I think ), he showed me one cylindrical overlay bottle.
It appeared to be purple on milk bottle, with carving of continuous mountain scenery around the circumferecnc of the body.

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on April 10, 2014, 03:03:11 am
Joey,

Thanks for another great anecdote....!

Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on April 10, 2014, 05:13:56 pm
My pleasure, Tom.
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on April 10, 2014, 11:14:21 pm

      And no offense, but 'snuffies' can be a tad cloying.
 

Joey, I believe the spelling was SNUFFLES, not SNUFFIES.   
Personally, I have no problem with either.    ;)

Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on April 11, 2014, 09:50:25 am
Tom,
   Surely it CAN'T be 'snuffles'; that is a euphemism for a cold.  ;)  ???
Whatever,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on April 11, 2014, 09:53:00 am
I thought that was 'sniffles' not 'snuffles'


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on April 11, 2014, 09:55:57 am
Pat,
  You are right! Sorry. But I still don't like 'snuffles'... just me, I guess.  ;D
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Pat - 查尚杰 on April 11, 2014, 09:58:35 am
I can't agree more .. haha.. snuffies is better...



Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Tom B. on June 29, 2015, 04:17:27 pm
Dear Joey,

Just reading this interesting thread and noticed that Ulrich never got around to clarifying his post.  You asked him, "But, you use terms that confuse me. What are 'rawlings'? And I have never heard of 'snowstorm' glass; 'snow flake', yes." 

Well since Ulrich is apparently a German name I guess that he may have done a partial translation of "rohlings" - a German term for "blanks" as in blank objects that are unfinished or undecorated. The German word "roh" translates to "raw" in English. 

I have a few snowflake SB's that I have been researching and came across a few auction results using the term "snowstorm" instead of "snow flake". The following is a link to the list of "liveauctioneers" sellers who use the term including "Qinn's" who are dealer members of the ICSBS.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=snowstorm+glass+snuff&by_date=2015-06-29T14:14:47.964Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=40  (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=snowstorm+glass+snuff&by_date=2015-06-29T14:14:47.964Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=40)

And even Christies has started to use the term:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-three-color-overlay-glass-sn-1750-1850-5880133-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5880133&sid=092e7827-f758-449d-a1a3-6cc5e94ca830 (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-three-color-overlay-glass-sn-1750-1850-5880133-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5880133&sid=092e7827-f758-449d-a1a3-6cc5e94ca830)

And finally a little update on your Qianlong YuZhi six color overlay glass SB from the Martin Shoen collection.  It was sold in sale # 9 of the Bloch Collection in November 2014 by Sotheby's Hong Kong:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-iv-hk0524/lot.97.html (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-iv-hk0524/lot.97.html)


With regards to your trade, "I traded that bottle to Robert Hall for two Ding Erzhongs in glass; a Zhou Leyuan in quartz, and a superb Daoguang Imperial mark and period underglazed blue & white porcelain landscape subject bottle, and the bottle made its way to George Bloch's collection. In fact, it was on the cover of his glass volume."  Judging by the fabulous increase in the prices of great middle school IPSB's especially Ding Erzhong's, I would say you made a very good trade then and even more so now. :)

Best regards,

Tom B.

 


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Tom B. on June 29, 2015, 04:54:00 pm
Dear Jo,

Sorry for this late reply. Not that I disagree that it is probably better to be safe than sorry, but I don't find the color of the SB you originally posted to be out of the realm of possibilities for 19th Century Yangzhou production.  The following is a group of four snuff bottles sold for circa $4,714 in May 2010 by Bonham's London.  It included a 6.3 cm High example with a color very close to the one you posted.

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17817/lot/44/ (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17817/lot/44/)

 I found a few others that were either slightly more blue or slightly more lavender.  The colors bounce all over the place. Another example, I have been researching a wonderful 19th C double overlay Yangzhou SB with the outermost layer in cinnabar red and other than the fact that they are all opaque the reds go from light fire-engine to almost dark brown.  These artisans were not trained chemists so the proportions were usually made "over the thumb", the way our grandmothers used to make those delicious meals and desserts.   

Best regards,

Tom B.


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Steven on June 29, 2015, 10:55:55 pm
Thanks Tom for your comparison of the two bottles!!

I really thought the bottle Jo posted at first place was an old bottle, but after seeing the comparison, I start to agree with Joey that bottle could be modern. Not speaking of the color, the carving style is off to me. Hard to explain, but the real Yongzhou bottle really give a 3 dimensional  look by playing with the thickness of the overlay layer of the  glass( like the the first example Tom shared.

I am watching another possible contemporary bottle with very similar carving style with the one Jo shared.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-Chinese-carved-peking-glass-snuff-bottle-2-25-Qing-squirrel-grapes-/231594600811?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ec1d296b.

I believe those two bottles can be from the same studio,very similar style, detailed carving. but missing something when you look closer, I guess its the 3 dimensional feel of the overlay layer.

Steven


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 30, 2015, 02:29:49 am
Dear Tom B.,

    Wow! What a lot of info in one post! This was wonderful to read. Thank you.

    This explains 'rawlings' (which you are correct - he never explained). I had never heard of 'snowstorm' glass; but it seems to be a relatively recent term, or possibly was originally also a term in German, which got translated into 'auctionese' English recently.
I'm impressed with the amount of research you've done on this subject.

    Re.my trade with Robert Hall (and thank you for posting my ex.Martin Schoen/ex.JB Silver overlay), it was a great bottle and was purchased by a new great collection in the making, and is back in East Asia.

Best,
Joey



Dear Joey,

Just reading this interesting thread and noticed that Ulrich never got around to clarifying his post.  You asked him, "But, you use terms that confuse me. What are 'rawlings'? And I have never heard of 'snowstorm' glass; 'snow flake', yes." 

Well since Ulrich is apparently a German name I guess that he may have done a partial translation of "rohlings" - a German term for "blanks" as in blank objects that are unfinished or undecorated. The German word "roh" translates to "raw" in English. 

I have a few snowflake SB's that I have been researching and came across a few auction results using the term "snowstorm" instead of "snow flake". The following is a link to the list of "liveauctioneers" sellers who use the term including "Qinn's" who are dealer members of the ICSBS.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=snowstorm+glass+snuff&by_date=2015-06-29T14:14:47.964Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=40  (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=snowstorm+glass+snuff&by_date=2015-06-29T14:14:47.964Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=40)

And even Christies has started to use the term:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-three-color-overlay-glass-sn-1750-1850-5880133-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5880133&sid=092e7827-f758-449d-a1a3-6cc5e94ca830 (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-three-color-overlay-glass-sn-1750-1850-5880133-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5880133&sid=092e7827-f758-449d-a1a3-6cc5e94ca830)

And finally a little update on your Qianlong YuZhi six color overlay glass SB from the Martin Shoen collection.  It was sold in sale # 9 of the Bloch Collection in November 2014 by Sotheby's Hong Kong:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-iv-hk0524/lot.97.html (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-iv-hk0524/lot.97.html)


With regards to your trade, "I traded that bottle to Robert Hall for two Ding Erzhongs in glass; a Zhou Leyuan in quartz, and a superb Daoguang Imperial mark and period underglazed blue & white porcelain landscape subject bottle, and the bottle made its way to George Bloch's collection. In fact, it was on the cover of his glass volume."  Judging by the fabulous increase in the prices of great middle school IPSB's especially Ding Erzhong's, I would say you made a very good trade then and even more so now. :)

Best regards,

Tom B.

 


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 30, 2015, 02:38:06 am
Dear Jo,
   
    After re-reading this post, I could not for the life of me, remember how I dated that bottle when I held it in my hand in late May. How did I date it then, antique or modern?

    I want to thank you and David again for the wonderful time I had in NC. The steak was especially memorable - I love good steak, well done.  ;D    And I enjoyed looking through the catalogue you gave me. Oddly, they did not have that impressive one in the ROM in Toronto when the same exhibition was on display - only a much edited version.

   Best,
Joey

Dear Jo,

Sorry for this late reply. Not that I disagree that it is probably better to be safe than sorry, but I don't find the color of the SB you originally posted to be out of the realm of possibilities for 19th Century Yangzhou production.  The following is a group of four snuff bottles sold for circa $4,714 in May 2010 by Bonham's London.  It included a 6.3 cm High example with a color very close to the one you posted.

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17817/lot/44/ (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17817/lot/44/)

 I found a few others that were either slightly more blue or slightly more lavender.  The colors bounce all over the place. Another example, I have been researching a wonderful 19th C double overlay Yangzhou SB with the outermost layer in cinnabar red and other than the fact that they are all opaque the reds go from light fire-engine to almost dark brown.  These artisans were not trained chemists so the proportions were usually made "over the thumb", the way our grandmothers used to make those delicious meals and desserts.   

Best regards,

Tom B.


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on June 30, 2015, 02:58:53 am
    Re.my trade with Robert Hall (and thank you for posting my ex.Martin Schoen/ex.JB Silver overlay), it was a great bottle and was purchased by a new great collection in the making, and is back in East Asia.

Dear Joey,

If you still have the four bottles, would you have still want to exchange for this YuZhi bottle back?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 30, 2015, 03:11:08 am
Dear YT,

     A very interesting question!

    I love that bottle, and it is arguably one of the best overlay glass bottles in the world, if not THE best; but I stopped collecting overlay glass 24 years ago.
   Today, I love my 2 Ding Erzhongs (my first!), my Zhou Leyuan, and my Daoguang Imperial B & W landscape so much, that I think, yes, I would still do the trade.

   But I do miss that bottle, and the thrill of owning a bottle personally approved and handled by the Qianlong Emperor was really a special feeling. Of course, since I had also owned the black enamel with the peonies and the Imperial marked muttonfat jade, and at least 20 other 'Imperial use' bottles in assorted materials, as well as over 150 'Imperial Workshops' and 'Imperial Porcelain Works' examples, I got that frisson of connection from other snuff bottles, but it is a special bottle.

Best,
Joey


    Re.my trade with Robert Hall (and thank you for posting my ex.Martin Schoen/ex.JB Silver overlay), it was a great bottle and was purchased by a new great collection in the making, and is back in East Asia.

Dear Joey,

If you still have the four bottles, would you have still want to exchange for this YuZhi bottle back?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on June 30, 2015, 03:32:17 am
Dear Joey,

That's a very nice and honest opinion.

I presume handling so many imperial bottles is a hazard. Most of the bottles in the world will become very much less attractive.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 30, 2015, 06:54:50 am
Dear YT,
 
    You would think; but I don't agree.
When I saw Tom's modern plain hardstone bottles which he bought in Mongolia, and Giovanni's which he bought in Italy, because of certain details, they were obviously new. But the shapes and markings were so pleasing, I was actually very attracted to them.

    I was very touched and grateful when Giovanni gave me his example, with its 'burning bush' markings so I could use it to give snuff out in Shul (Synagogue) on Shabbat. Since Orthodox Jews can't smoke on Shabbat, but many are still addicted to nicotine, we give out snuff. And it is a social thing as well - I go around offering snuff and also say "Shabbat Shalom" (Sabbath Peace) to each person I greet.

    There are many, many bottles out there which, while not of Imperial manufacture, are of equally high quality. And there are superb modern examples, such as many enamelled porcelains, plain hardstones, and of course IPSBs, which are wonderful examples of the Chinese genius for artistic beauty which has continued for over 3000 years.

    Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

That's a very nice and honest opinion.

I presume handling so many imperial bottles is a hazard. Most of the bottles in the world will become very much less attractive.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Tom B. on June 30, 2015, 01:52:56 pm
Hello Steven,

You have described the essence of the genius of the "Li Junting" type Yangzhou school carved overlay glass snuff bottles.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that the Yangzhou glass carvers were influenced by the Suzhou stone carvers who could take a dark blob in a chunk of agate and turn it into a wonderful silhouette. 


Thanks Tom for your comparison of the two bottles!!

I really thought the bottle Jo posted at first place was an old bottle, but after seeing the comparison, I start to agree with Joey that bottle could be modern. Not speaking of the color, the carving style is off to me. Hard to explain, but the real Yongzhou bottle really give a 3 dimensional  look by playing with the thickness of the overlay layer of the  glass( like the the first example Tom shared.

I am watching another possible contemporary bottle with very similar carving style with the one Jo shared.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/antique-Chinese-carved-peking-glass-snuff-bottle-2-25-Qing-squirrel-grapes-/231594600811?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ec1d296b.

I believe those two bottles can be from the same studio,very similar style, detailed carving. but missing something when you look closer, I guess its the 3 dimensional feel of the overlay layer.

Steven

It is unfortunate that the eBay SB is so poorly photographed. In my opinion that one actually looks closer to the expected color 'shading' of old Yangzhou SB's especially the grapes. But it may be from the same atelier only a more mature product.  It is definitely not a classic example of Yangzhou carved overlay glass. 

Best regards,

Tom B.




Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Tom B. on June 30, 2015, 02:17:02 pm
Dear Joey,

Dear Tom B.,

    Wow! What a lot of info in one post! This was wonderful to read. Thank you.

    This explains 'rawlings' (which you are correct - he never explained). I had never heard of 'snowstorm' glass; but it seems to be a relatively recent term, or possibly was originally also a term in German, which got translated into 'auctionese' English recently.
I'm impressed with the amount of research you've done on this subject.

    Re.my trade with Robert Hall (and thank you for posting my ex.Martin Schoen/ex.JB Silver overlay), it was a great bottle and was purchased by a new great collection in the making, and is back in East Asia.

Best,
Joey

I am not sure but I would think that there is a good chance that "snowstorm" comes from the translation of Chinese descriptions of these bottles.

Best regards,

Tom B.


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Tom B. on June 30, 2015, 02:21:29 pm
Dear Joey, Y.T., and other knowledgeable collectors of Yangzhou school SB's,

I have been wondering just how long the glass carving tradition lasted in Yangzhou?  I have seen dates as early as 1786 on overlay SB's attributed to Yangzhou.

According to the latest published research all of those early dates (circa 1800 - 1840) for 'Li Junting' bottles were erroneous.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2003/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-including-fine-chinese-snuff-bottles-from-the-collection-of-ann-john-hamilton-n07881/lot.236.html (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2003/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-including-fine-chinese-snuff-bottles-from-the-collection-of-ann-john-hamilton-n07881/lot.236.html)

By the way just look at the "blue" color of that nice "Li Junting" from the Hamilton collection. 

Since we now know that it was not "Junting" but rather Yunting.  Yunting was the courtesy or leisure name of Li Peisong 李培松, who moved from his native Dantu to Yangzhou around 1870 and had several glass-overlay snuff bottles made bearing dates from 1877 to 1881, as well as some undated bottles.  It is highly likely that SB's were made in Yangzhou at least through the end of the Qing Dynasty in 1911 and possibly continued well into the 20th century.  But for how long?  Collectors and tourists would have made at least a small demand until the upheaval of WWII circa 1940 or am I way off?

Best regards,


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on June 30, 2015, 08:07:32 pm
Dear Tom B.,

    I learned from YF Yang that the market for 'Yangzhou Seal School' bottles was fueled by the scholar-collector desires (pretensions?) of the wealthy salt merchants, who wanted to emulate the Literati scholar-collectors, but were limited in collecting and owning certain objects and materials due to sumptuary laws during the late Ming and the Qing dynasties. We know the salt merchants were wealthy and developing refined tastes in the 17th and 18th C.; by the mid-19th C., their wealth and ability to buy luxury goods was on the wane.

   Who has done the new research you mentioned? If it is a certain dealer, the information is not reliable, since he is notorious for changing 'facts' to suit his mercantile needs. Whether it is Li Junting or Yunting (AKA Li Peisong), to whom certain bottles are attributed, surely you are not suggesting that ALL the bottles we refer to as Yangzhou Seal School bottles are by him and attributed to the period ? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

   I'd love to read any info you can suggest to document WHEN Yangzhou Seal bottles were made; but till I'm convinced, I will continue with the 'old' dates of ca. 1780-1850, based on info from YF and Clare Chu.
Best,
Joey
   

 


Dear Joey, Y.T., and other knowledgeable collectors of Yangzhou school SB's,

I have been wondering just how long the glass carving tradition lasted in Yangzhou?  I have seen dates as early as 1786 on overlay SB's attributed to Yangzhou.

According to the latest published research all of those early dates (circa 1800 - 1840) for 'Li Junting' bottles were erroneous.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2003/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-including-fine-chinese-snuff-bottles-from-the-collection-of-ann-john-hamilton-n07881/lot.236.html (http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2003/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-including-fine-chinese-snuff-bottles-from-the-collection-of-ann-john-hamilton-n07881/lot.236.html)

By the way just look at the "blue" color of that nice "Li Junting" from the Hamilton collection. 

Since we now know that it was not "Junting" but rather Yunting.  Yunting was the courtesy or leisure name of Li Peisong 李培松, who moved from his native Dantu to Yangzhou around 1870 and had several glass-overlay snuff bottles made bearing dates from 1877 to 1881, as well as some undated bottles.  It is highly likely that SB's were made in Yangzhou at least through the end of the Qing Dynasty in 1911 and possibly continued well into the 20th century.  But for how long?  Collectors and tourists would have made at least a small demand until the upheaval of WWII circa 1940 or am I way off?

Best regards,


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on June 30, 2015, 11:44:24 pm
Dear Tom B.,

I know nuts to Yangzhou bottles.
If late 19th century still commands such pricing as this Lot 155 sold on 1st June 2015 then there are still many people who loves a good Yangzhou bottle.
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-x-hk0576/lot.155.html


Attached is a bottle from Yangzhou that has no writings on it but I like it for it's simplicity. I believe this will be a 1780-1840.
"Five coloured YangZhou Glass Overlay of upright rectangular form with sloping shoulders and a flat lip, with an olive-colored oval foot rim, and overlays of olive, yellow, blue, pink and green on a translucent milk glass ground, one side with a cat and butterflies, reversed by a scholar, presumably Tao Yuanming, with a wine pot and a spray of chrysanthemum, mask ring handles to the sides. 6.2cm high"
Provenance :
Property from the Norton Simon Museum of Art Pasadena, California.
PB 84 New York, 25th Sept 1979, Lot 19.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 01, 2015, 07:40:14 am
Dear YT,
     I agree with your dating for this bottle.
     I was actually at PB84 about 2 weeks later, for an auction which included bottles from the Dr. & Mrs. Louis Wolferz, Dr. Sidney Levine,  and Julie Stempel (Al's widow) collections (superb IPSBs, including 3 Ma Shaoxuan portraits and a Ding Erzhong, along with at least another 12 Ma bottles, a number of Zhou Leyuans, and a bunch of other great IPSBs).
     My purchases included 3 lots from the Al & Julie Stempel collection from Hong Kong. I'd met them in 1978 during the ICSBS Hong Kong convention, my first. They were really nice and extremely hospitable, even though Al was dying of cancer. He died in mid-Feb.1979:  lot 75, a white glazed leaf-form bottle, sadly with the flared neck ground down (I later bought one with the neck in original condition); lot 183, a pewter bottle (#74 in my 1987 cat.); and lot 187, a carved coral (#68).
   Best,
    Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 03, 2015, 12:56:18 am
Dear Joey,

I saw your Stempel bottle purchases. The 17th Pewter(that's very early) and the ZLY are very nice.
Your later replacement of the soft paste leaf form bought from Bob Stevens is much better.
A ground down similar version will sell less than $1k now.


Do you recognize this Lot 18 Double overlay that sold for $3,500?

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 07, 2015, 08:24:37 am
Dear YT,
    It looks familiar, but I was distracted by lot 21, which I loved, but didn't get.  ;D
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 07, 2015, 10:20:31 pm
Dear Joey,

I was about to post this Pink dual glass overlay and about how it was from the collection of Stempel and Szekeres when you point me to this beautiful white on blue overlay. Lot 21 is really beautiful with a simple composition that is enhanced by the excellent control of the carver.

Attached is lot 18 that is not as nice but very rare.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 08, 2015, 12:49:15 am
Dear YT,

Thanks for hilighting this unusual and rare bottle. I am familiar with the "snake and tortoise" combination, but wondering if the tiger on the reverse side has any significance when combined with the other two creatures.

Regards,
Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 08, 2015, 01:27:22 am
Dear Tom,

Glad you like it.  ;D
Can you please share with me the tortoise and snake story? The tail of the snake forms the foot ring.
As for the other side, there is a bat taunting a stalking/growling tiger.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 08, 2015, 03:18:09 am
Dear YT,

I bought an agate bottle with a snake and tortoise theme around 20 years ago. I did some research into its symbolism at the time, and made the below notes. I have not checked any recent books on Chinese rebus and symbolism, so my comments may be off the mark.

"This bottle has an interesting and unusual subject. The combination of a black tortoise together with a snake symbolizes the North cardinal point, or 'lands to the North', and may be an oblique reference to the Manchu emperors, who descended from the North to overthrow the Ming dynasty and establish the Qing dynasty. The relevance of the second snake is not clear."

Maybe someone else can offer a better interpretation.

Tom 


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 08, 2015, 06:06:37 am
Dear Tom,
     I've not found any more meanings than the one you mentioned.

Dear YT,
    That bottle (lot 21) was one I really wanted, but it was out of my price range then, and probably today as well.
One of "the ones that got away"...  ;D

Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 08, 2015, 09:37:35 am
Dear Tom,

I have managed to find the snake coiling around tortoise story that involves around XuanWu and your mentioned of black tortoise from the north. Thank you.
"The Black Tortoise or Black Turtle is one of the Four Symbols of the Chinese constellations. Despite its English name, it is usually depicted as a turtle entwined together with a snake."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tortoise

As for the tiger and bat, the below translation points to longevity and fortune.
 老虎是“兽”,“兽”同“寿”,蝙蝠的“蝠”同 “福”蝙蝠神兽, 就是 福寿双全

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 08, 2015, 10:18:38 am
Dear YT,
    Could this (the representation of tortoise and snake) have Astrological symbolism in that case? Or is it just presenting a wish for longevity to the recipient?
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 08, 2015, 10:03:21 pm
Thanks YT,

So the black turtle/tortoise seems to consistently represent 'north' (and its guardianship) in several Asian cultures. But I don't understand where the snake fits into the picture. Is there perhaps a Chinese rebus that I am missing?

Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: rpfstoneman on July 09, 2015, 01:17:15 am

Tom, this is what I know about it. But not being Chinese or knowing the culture that well I'm not sure I completely understand the significance.   Charll

Xuan Wu Dragon Tortoise-
This dragon tortoise has a snake carried on its back and is known to be Xuan Wu or Lord of the North. The Xuan Wu Dragon Tortoise is best to usher in good luck in while suppressing any instability caused by certain energy disorders. These two marshals (i.e., presumably meaning the tortoise and the snake) are said to belong to a deity named Xuan Thien Shang Di.  One representing a water element and the other a fire element. Their combination is said to be able to control fate, relieve disasters, treat ailments, prolong life and bring in good fortune.





Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 09, 2015, 02:06:16 am
Dear all,

This is what I have gathered so far.

The Taoist god 玄武(xuán wǔ) is the 'Black Tortoise'. Physically it looks like a tortoise entwined together with a snake.
The four holy beast that all demons are afraid of is the "东苍龙、西白虎、南朱雀、北玄武" East Dragon, West Tiger, South Phoenix and North XuanWu.

This Pink overlay could be one of two bottles' set, with the other showing a dragon and a phoenix.
Attached is the top and bottom pics.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 09, 2015, 02:20:22 am
"This bottle has an interesting and unusual subject. The combination of a black tortoise together with a snake symbolizes the North cardinal point, or 'lands to the North', and may be an oblique reference to the Manchu emperors, who descended from the North to overthrow the Ming dynasty and establish the Qing dynasty. The relevance of the second snake is not clear."

Dear Tom,

The Qing emperors will never want to emphasize the fact that they overthrow the Ming.
They promote ManChu and Hans as one family and learnt from each others culture. Being the minority race, the ManChu had to embrace the Han culture to preserve their imperial power.

XuanWu was first heard in the Xia Dynasty夏朝 c. 2070 – c. 1600 BC. It was mainly used to ward off evil.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 09, 2015, 02:25:28 am
Dear YT and Charll,

Thank you both for your input.
YT, the possibility of a second bottle existing to complete the 'feared foursome' set is an interesting one. So one bottle covers the North and West, while the other covers South and East.............all bases covered.  ;)

Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 09, 2015, 02:39:53 am

The Qing emperors will never want to emphasize the fact that they overthrow the Ming.
They promote ManChu and Hans as one family and learnt from each others culture. Being the minority race, the ManChu had to embrace the Han culture to preserve their imperial power.

XuanWu was first heard in the Xia Dynasty夏朝 c. 2070 – c. 1600 BC. It was mainly used to ward off evil.


Dear YT,

Point noted. Thanks for correcting me!

Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: YT on July 09, 2015, 02:50:19 am
Dear Tom,

You are welcome and I didn't mean to correct you :P

Thanks to your North-West to South-East theory.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 09, 2015, 05:11:16 am
Dear YT,
 
     So in effect, would a suggested 2 bottle set, with this bottle displaying  'North XuanWu' and 'West Tiger', and the second bottle displaying 'East Dragon' and 'South Phoenix', would in effect be an amulet, displaying the 'Four Holy Beasts'  and keeping away all demons ?   I assume this is a Daoist belief, rather than Buddhist.

     Thank you for the insight. My first thought was that these were three of the animals representing the Chinese Zodiac, but while  the snake and the tiger are there, the tortoise/turtle is not. I then wondered if it was a rebus, but no luck there, either. Then I wondered if there was a Chinese proverb or story, like one I just learned about from Curt Lam, who was just here with his family.

    One of the four B & W bottles I just got in the Bonham's SFO sale of 23.June,2015, from lot 7186 (from the Bentley Collection, London), has a picture of a bird (a snipe - Thanks Tom; sandpiper - Thanks Inn Bok) with its beak caught in a clam shell. The bird tried to eat the clam's flesh, and its beak was caught by the clam which refused to release it and  both are about to be grabbed by a fisherman, suggesting a Chinese proverb, parable or story which implies that two smaller powers which fight among themselves will inevitably BOTH be swallowed up by a much larger power. Thank you to  Inn Bok for clarifying that it is based on a historical episode.

Best,
Joey


Dear all,

This is what I have gathered so far.

The Taoist god 玄武(xuán wǔ) is the 'Black Tortoise'. Physically it looks like a tortoise entwined together with a snake.
The four holy beast that all demons are afraid of is the "东苍龙、西白虎、南朱雀、北玄武" East Dragon, West Tiger, South Phoenix and North XuanWu.

This Pink overlay could be one of two bottles' set, with the other showing a dragon and a phoenix.
Attached is the top and bottom pics.

Cheers,
YT


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 09, 2015, 05:28:28 am

......a picture of a bird with it's beak caught in a clam shell. The bird tried to eat the clam's flesh, and its beak was caught by the clam which refused to release it and  both are about to be grabbed by a fisherman, suggesting a Chinese proverb or story which implies that two smaller powers which fight among themselves will inevitably BOTH be swallowed up by a much larger power.


Dear Joey,

The story of the snipe and clam is in one of the Raymond Li books; although I don't recall which one off hand. However, I don't remember there being a fisherman in his illustrated example, so the story represents a stalemate, where both adversaries eventually starve to death. The addition of the fisherman into the equation make it a lot more in tune with imperial Middle Kingdom thinking!

Tom


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: OIB on July 09, 2015, 05:51:03 am
Tom,

The snipe or sandpiper (?) and the clam's story does involve the fisherman. The Chinese saying is 鹬蚌相争渔翁得利.
   
鹬 (yu ) = snipe / sandpiper
蚌 ( bang ) = clam
相争 ( xiang zheng ) = having conflict / war with each other
渔翁 ( yuweng ) = fisherman
得利 ( deli ) = benefits   

It was a parable that a strategist (during the Warring State period of Chinese history) used to persuade two small fiefdoms ( the Zhao and the Yan states ) not to fight between them, otherwise the big player, Qing state will be the ultimate winner swallowing them up !

Inn Bok


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Wattana on July 09, 2015, 09:20:19 pm
Inn Bok,

Thank you for your comprehensive 'breakdown' (for foreigner's consumption) of the full meaning of this Chinese parable. Most educational....!

Tom 


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 09, 2015, 09:41:57 pm
Dear Inn Bok,
    Ditto from me!  ;)
Best,
Joey


Inn Bok,

Thank you for your comprehensive 'breakdown' (for foreigner's consumption) of the full meaning of this Chinese parable. Most educational....!

Tom 


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: joearp on July 11, 2015, 08:09:29 am
 I am catching up on reading posts today.  I wanted to comment to all that I did not purchase the bottle that I posted originally for discussion.   I feared it might be modern and backed off. Joey - the one you saw in NC was indeed an old bottle, Yangzhou School, that I purchased earlier.  I do love it and am glad you thought it to be an antique.  We enjoyed your visit and look forward to seeing you in Chicago.


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on July 11, 2015, 11:07:19 am
Dear Jo & David,
      I really enjoyed my visit as well, and also look forward to Chicago.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

I am catching up on reading posts today.  I wanted to comment to all that I did not purchase the bottle that I posted originally for discussion.   I feared it might be modern and backed off. Joey - the one you saw in NC was indeed an old bottle, Yangzhou School, that I purchased earlier.  I do love it and am glad you thought it to be an antique.  We enjoyed your visit and look forward to seeing you in Chicago.


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: rosegl on September 11, 2017, 08:01:06 am
Dear all,
I just read the thread of 2014/15 with much interest. An Austrian auction house recently offered a "damask red" Yangzhou bottle. The form reminds A RED-OVERLAY WHITE GLASS SNUFF BOTTLE sold in the Barron IV auction in New York. But the colour is different. Any idea about the age of the damask red bottle (I remember that Joey was saying that if ONE detail is wrong...)?
Thanks for your opinion!
Georges


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: George on September 11, 2017, 02:59:16 pm
I am not very good with these , but a comment related to one thing wrong.. It seems the shape of the bottle itself is wrong.. I am use to seeing the rectangular, flat shapes..


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: rosegl on September 11, 2017, 03:53:31 pm
Thanks for your comment, George. But look at the following examples: flat and rounded...
Best
Georges


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: George on September 11, 2017, 08:00:32 pm
Thanks for your comment, George. But look at the following examples: flat and rounded...
Best
Georges

Thanks for the comparison Georges..



Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: AntPeople on September 11, 2017, 09:16:22 pm
IMO.... the bottle is modern.

The colour and shape of the bottle is not similar to older bottles...

Pin


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司 on September 11, 2017, 10:10:22 pm
Dear Georges,

      I have seen other shapes than upright rectangular with raised footrim, but relatively rarely.
     But my feeling, like Pin's, is that it is modern. Though I'd need to see it 'live' to be sure.
Best,
Joey


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: rosegl on September 12, 2017, 02:49:37 am
The neck of this bottle seems shorter than usual and the mouth is extremely large (Width of the mouth: 10 mm; Width of the neck: 15 mm). Could that be a distinctive feature of some - old or recent - workshop?

Georges


Title: Re: Yangzhou School Bottle- Your Thoughts Please!
Post by: George on September 12, 2017, 03:56:27 am
The neck of this bottle seems shorter than usual and the mouth is extremely large (Width of the mouth: 10 mm; Width of the neck: 15 mm). Could that be a distinctive feature of some - old or recent - workshop?

Georges

Yes, there is something Georges...  :)

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2764.msg37340.html#msg37340