Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Purchased from Hess Auctions via eBay.

Provenance is Early 19th bottle from the RJP Collection of Fine Chinese Jade and Decorative Arts.

1 5/8" tall..

Would like to hear from others about cleaning, or not to clean..

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2FCloisonne%2520Chinese%2520Snuff%2520Bottle%2Fcloisonne2_zps68f8cdb7.jpg&hash=e6d860cace0880b431871225d39d732f)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2FCloisonne%2520Chinese%2520Snuff%2520Bottle%2Fcloisonne3_zps6d855df6.jpg&hash=2f599109d1f402a7d948bfab357f99c6)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2FCloisonne%2520Chinese%2520Snuff%2520Bottle%2Fcloisonne1_zps75772573.jpg&hash=eb85c5d1f4fd6f3861467e43cf662df0)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2FCloisonne%2520Chinese%2520Snuff%2520Bottle%2Fcloisonne4_zps367c22db.jpg&hash=59d7709b7d8c88b69ed3d1f8daa314f2)

George,

All I can say is this bottle looks to have a heavily crusted patina.  It has the appearance of being buried for some time.  The concern is that some of the enamel is missing.  If the enamels are intact and firm I would consider cleaning, but this one looks a bit problematic. 

Charll   

Hi George,

I will share some comments with Charll, it looks like the enamel is missing at several spots.

Yes, I was aware, and the seller did share about the enamel...  It was cheap..

I just like old relic looking items like this bottle... So I gave the missing enamel a pass...  :)

George,

A nice find!  Personally, I would not clean the bottle, other than removing any loose debris with a soft (very soft) dry brush. The patination and oxidation are part of its overall charm.

Tom

George,
   I don't know the auction and don't know the collection, but that bottle is 20th C. Chinese  (or Japanese) Cloisonne was never made in this way before the 1930s, with exposed wires.
  Joey
 

After your comment Joey, started to dig a little more..

Finding that Russia was creating 19th century (http://www.imperialrussia.com/enamelcloisonne.html) raised "twisted" wire cloisonne in a variety of mediums including snuff boxes and bottles...

I might be inclined to believe it 19th century Russian over being a 20th century China/Japan cloisonne piece.  One thing that will aid in attributing to Russia, would be a hallmark. The base is covered with a sticker in the auction pics, so will know more once it arrives.. Although I think this baluster shape likely not Russian in style..

How far into the 20th century was the first use of raised cloisonne twisted type wire on Chinese and Japanese pieces Joey ?

A quick search shows a few 18th century raised wire pieces via Christies, but only one is twisted wire that more matches all but the shoulder of my bottle, and other Russian works.

This first one is twisted wire..

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-cloisonne-enamel-silver-mounted-burlwood-snuff-bottle-5046831-details.aspx

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-cloisonne-enamel-decorated-snuff-bottle-1760-1820-4952439-details.aspx

George,
   I would date both those bottles later than 1920.
Russian enamel work is not my area of expertise. It could be 19th C. if Russian (and if they did this type of cloisonne work.).
Joey

Dear George,
I know nothing about cloisonne, but I think that you may be right about not being it Chinese. The motif doesn't look Chinese style to me.
But, if it is indeed Chinese, then I think that it is highly suspicious because I have never seen a cloisonne in such conditions. Where should them have kept it? Really strange, most probably a purposed acid treatment to make it look old.
Giovanni

All,

This may be a bit off topic, but it is worth mentioning for those that don’t know.  Small treasured articles such as snuff bottle have often been buried with their owners when they passed on to the afterlife.  With continued expansion of many cities in China a number of burial locations have been encountered and/or reclaimed (some would say looted) for building construction.  This was particularly prevalent during the construction of the Olympic venue locations in Beijing.   Over the years a number of dealers (ex., Wang & Co.) have acquired oxidized bottles from these old burial sites.  A number of glass and stone snuff bottles have been supposedly been recovered, re-polished, and have found their way onto the open market.   Now if this has occurred with these two materials, I would also expect to find the full range of snuff bottle materials to be in said burial sites.  Glass and stone generally hold up the damp ground oxidizing conditions OK, but the organics and some metals not so good.   I was not kidding when I said George’s bottle looked as though it came out of a burial site. 

Charll   

I will have to agree with Charll on this one, some detail on the bottle indicate the bottle is not a modern copy to me.

Dear Charll,
   I don't believe for one minute that those bottles, sold by Dick (Ning) Wang, Hugh Moss, and Robert Hall, are genuine or were dug up in graves. I believe they are ALL FAKE.
   Have you seen the written records of any documented digs which found such bottles? I haven't.
As Clare Chu said to someone who asked her if she had any, "No I do not, and I would not. I believe them to be fakes, but even if they are genuine, they should be the property of the Chinese government and people. How would one describe it on an invoice, "looted from a grave, by repute?!"
   I asked 20+ Chinese at the convention, "If you were to be buried with an artifact, what material would it be?" All answered Jade. None answered glass or cloisonne.
   I ask all ethnic Chinese on the Forum. What material if any, would you like to be buried with, after death, when you are over 120, G-D Willing?
Joey

Joey,

Appreciated the opinion, and I'm only restating what I've read and have been told in discussions with a couple of dealers regarding re-polishing of scuffed and oxidized glass snuff bottles.   As you well know we both know what oxidized glass looks like, you in regard to Roman glass and myself finding buried glass bottles from the 1800's at old logging camp and homestead sites.  I would assume the same process would occur with snuff bottles regardless how they came to be buried, whether it be in a grave, by accident, natural disaster, a forgotten or misplaced cache, dropped in a river while crossing, etc.   

Charll   

Dear all,
we have already discussed this a few months ago. It all started when I have raised doubts about the catalog of a dealer who had too many supposedly buried bottles in his catalogs. I don't believe that Authorities start the demolition of town's districts where it is known that there is the possible existence of graves without taking the proper measures and controls.
Giovanni

Dear all,
it is really hard to believe to me that this bottle is Chinese. What I have learned is that Chinese has strict rules in their art. Everything has a meaning so there is no space for improvisation or fantasy. This bottle do not follows such rules.
1): what is that repeated motif that we see in the red circles? I have never seen it before.
2): Which kind of flower is that in the yellow circle? Flowers are always recognizable in Chinese art, and they are always the same: peony, orchid, chrysanthemum, magnolia, and so on.
3): I may be wrong but I do not remember of having seen separated leaves (or whatever motif) around the neck as we see in the blue circle. Usually the repeated motifs there are closer each other.
Giovanni

I think have narrowed down those motifs to be Russian..  It's auction nite, so will share some pics in a bit..

I am finding the one flower that you circled in yellow on some 19th century Russain pieces..

Having a bit of a time with an exaact ID for the flower. Not finding any better description than, flower, floral, and foliate motif.

Going to look further, and also try to ID the other designs you circled Giovanni.. Will probably take me some time...

At this point I will actually be a little surprised if there is not a Russian hallmark on the base..

Here are just a couple of 19th c. examples..

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fcloisonne1_zpscdc70037.jpg&hash=2000ad37990822ce5f67bd994ae871a5)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fcloisonneteacaddyspoon_zps2c2b1258.jpg&hash=e83873b720b04af3e2a425cd7b9d1ff1)

Hi All, I am following this thread with great interest! Some thought provoking arguments have been put forward.

Giovanni, your critical and detailed analysis was a pleasure to read, and very much appreciated.

George, I think you are on the right track. If you are proved right, I will toast you with a glass of vodka......although I may fore-go smashing the glass into the fireplace* !!! 

[* we don't have many fireplaces in Thailand] ;D

Tom

Yes, Thanks George and Givoanni,

I think you have nailed it. Great job!

Thank you Tom and Steven.
Dear George, to be precise, I am not interested in knowing what those motif are representing. My meaning was to show that they are not Chinese.
Giovanni

George and Giovanni,
     I'm convinced that the bottle (possibly a perfume bottle, since I don't know of people using snuff bottles in Russia. They were famous for their snuff boxes, including examples by Faberge.), is Russian, and may well have been buried for some reason (to hide a then valuable object from the Communists?).
   
  Charll,
     I agree that glass does get oxidised.
I don't agree with the farfetched story by certain dealers of huge amounts of facetted glass bottles being buried and now dug up. And I couldn't understand quoting them without any caveats, as if this story was serious. I asked YF about such stories, when they first started being spread. Mr Yang pulled out a small nephrite Jade fondling piece, held it a moment, and handed it to me to play with.
   He then asked me back, "Joey, you have been studying "Zhongwen" (Chinese Culture) for 40 years now. If Chinese were going to be buried with a material object which was personal, wouldn't it automatically be a piece of Jade?"
   This was the source of my question to ethnic Chinese re. their personal and cultural preferences if being buried with an object.
Best,
   Joey

Joey,

I'm not saying that I do not disagree with you about the sale of said bottles you question.  I was just stating that tomb leveling, movement, and land reclamation is occurring in China as demonstrated in this one example of what I expect to be many, and that there may be some underlining truths behind the tales of artifacts being raised during gave removals.  It sounds from the articles that the people on the land, or the deceased kin, are being asked to move graves with very little control or regulation.  In this process, the liberation of artifacts would not be unexpected.  I wonder how much grave movement took place during the Three Gorges Dam project alone?  If one wishes to read more on this subject here are two links on this single incident:

http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/a-million-vanishing-tombs-why-china-is-turning-graveyards-into-farmlands/china-tomb-removal-leveling-henan/c3s10202/#.UrKRVvRDubU

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-02/20/content_16241521.htm

Charll,
    I know that this is going on. I want to see a DOCUMENTED example of the extraction of an octagonal glass snuff bottle from a grave. ONE.
    I have spoken to people with connections in the Beijing area, who have asked government officials  and private 'entrepeneurs' if they know about tomb goods being unearthed, and available for sale. Both sources, public and 'private', deny it.
    Best,
      Joey

This has turned into a fun bottle to examine.. !

There are no Russian hallmarks.

The first thing I noticed was how very heavy it is for it's size. Started to question if it was just a solid body or possibly packed with something for whatever reason. Looking at the top, it almost seemed like that was possible. Then I realized that the black around the inside perimeter of the bezel setting was not the remains of some kind of stone or plastic cabochon. It was a soft unknown gunk was easily removed. Followed by a hard glue that was used to hold the cabochon that use to be there.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Ftop1_zpse3e9de08.jpg&hash=35c766f84cb7027960c4d277b89f6888)

I could not get over the weight. So my curiosity kicked in and decided to drill through the hardened glue to see what I hit. Figured I could simply place a cabochon over the drilled hole.

During the drilling, the top "unscrewed" and came right off on the clockwise moving drilling motion of the drill. Here is a little bit of a twist, because turns out that the threads are left handed !
 
(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Ftop4_zpsb2949cb5.jpg&hash=397b462c224ba2ae47f976c5e495f2c9)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Ftop2_zpsf239e533.jpg&hash=10adcbd1afb2cdb2f6b6281ed2eec429)


Turns out that the excessive weight is due to the thick body being solid silver. As can be seen after some better than gentle  ;) cleaning on the cloisonne areas where the enamel has been lost. And also the base..

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2F009_zpsde40560a.jpg&hash=75363ae81d7a899ea715cdba2aa83804)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2F008_zps3405596b.jpg&hash=010c14810262110fe3cb6497cc6d116b)

To give an idea of how heavy this is, in comparison to a solid silver one ounce round, the bottle is only two grams lighter..

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2F002_zpsdaa34c22.jpg&hash=4b15c1edb53ae3b00884f39967548484)

Now for my reward in return for letting my curiosity get me this far was finding some of the most wonderful snuff I have ever tried !  :D

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Ftop3_zpsdc33ef46.jpg&hash=fa0868396764127afbf2713444d824cc)

At first, the only other examples of the floral motif were being found on Russian works.. Until I found what at least appears to be a Chinese snuff bottle with the same motif.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fsnuffbottle_zps962be019.jpg&hash=070bda5ce0424350d820d0c4e8bb0248)

So the questions I am left with are..

Joey dated the previously posted Christies raised twisted wire examples as 20th century. Here is another solid silver body bottle ( snuff ? ) that I am sure is 20th c., and shows the same left handed threaded bottle, with the spoon.

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fsecondsolidsilver_zps157fa6b8.jpg&hash=b702bed3b1c8153ef79c0a317f4eedba)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fsecond1_zps51521994.jpg&hash=f2de7348d397fd7ca9a703f8033f8c31)

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj612%2Fsnuffbottlesplus%2Fsecond2_zps8dc31369.jpg&hash=92bd854e0a19c08467ef0fe14796eeae)

I know it was used as a snuff bottle, even though there was no spoon.

Can’t explain the left handed threads, even after finding another example.. Left handed threads just do not seem like a Chinese design.

The heavy solid silver body is unusual to me, as I always thought these cloisonne works used copper bodies.

And I do know that the snuff was absolutely wonderful !  :D
 

Dear George,
I am glad that you found it is made of silver, and a heavy one!
The cloisonnè Chinese bottle that you show above has not thre same design, that is typical Chinese, your one not IMO.
Out of curiosity, how do you know that the snuff is good? Have you snuffed it? Is it not dangerous, supposing that it could not be snuff?
Kind regards
Giovanni

Your right Giovanni.. Not as close a match on the motif as it should be..

As for the snuff.. I rubbed some between my fingers, and then put them up to my nose and inhaled.. At first did not actually sniff a pinch of it. Just kept rubbing it between my fingers and inhaling the scent from it.. It had a wonderful smell, cleared my nostrils, and the auroma lingered for a long time.  I kept on doing this until there was no more to rub between my fingers.

I don't really know if it could be dangerous to inhale an aged snuff powder...  Maybe it is like wine, and gets better with age !  :D

Dear George,
     The snuff should be fine. Chinese screwnecks are in opposite direction to Western, as far as I know.
 Best,
 Joey