Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇

Ceramics with underglaze copper-red decoration are less common as copper mineral is known to be notoriously difficult to control during the firing process, resulting in a grey or almost colorless design. The failure rate was said to be so high that the Jingdezhen potters often had to plead with officials to reduce orders requested by the Court.  When executed properly the cooper red color is an attractive crush raspberry-red tone (as opposed to iron red which tends to take on a more orange-red tone), and is evenly distributed.
 
Copper has two oxidation states. The cupric oxide can be reduced to cuprous oxide (Cu2O): 2 CuO + CO --> Cu2O + CO2.  Under normal firing conditions, this reaction does not occur, but when a reducing environment is created (wet wood on the fire, for example, will produce high CO), this reaction takes place and the cuprous oxide is red, bright red.  That's the desired tone.

There are two problems that can occur in the firing process:
1) There is a 2nd reaction: Cu2O + CO --> 2 Cu + CO2 (i.e. if not controlled your nice cuprous oxide and thus your red color is gone).

2) You need to be able to make a well controlled reducing environment.

The trick is to stop after the first reaction. This can be partially achieved by adding extra ingredients to the glaze mixture, an art virtually lost after the Ming dynasty.

See the Gotheborg List for 'A Discussion of Underglaze Copper Red, Iron Red, and How Manganese Oxide is Used' at: http://www.gotheborg.com/qa/manganese_red.shtml

Dragon Pillar Bottle: Underglaze Cobalt Blue and Cooper Red Design.
This dragon design expresses the issues with the use of copper red.  The firing environment around the bottom of the bottle was better than the top.  The cooper red hi-lights are almost completely washed out in the top half of the bottle. 

The Bottle has a concentric ring base typical of pillar bottles.  Height is a taller one at 10.8 cm, or just under 4 inches.  I believe this bottle is a later example of this design circa 1850 to 1920.   

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A New Acquisition And Charll's Friday Night Bottle

Charll,

Thanks for sharing this information about under-glaze copper-red. I was completely unaware there was a process other than iron-red for achieving reds. I like the bottle - the design has a fluidity to it that is quite different from most pillar dragon bottles.

Really an interesting and informative post Charll....

Congratulations on the new and beautiful dragon bottle too  !

The bottle is very nice.. so crisp.. but the shape of it is unlike anything I have seen.

Like this bottle Charll,especially the shape. Glad you got it for your collection.  I almost bid on it,but was not truly convinced that it was not a modern copy.  So I am happy it found a good home at your house.  Enjoy!!!! Jo

Beautiful bottle, Charli! Could "normal" dragon pillar bottles and this one have been produces at the same workshop? The head of the dragon looks very familiar, the shape not at all!

Georges

Beautiful bottle Charll
Danna

Georges,


To address this question would take someone with more knowledge on the workshops and their outputs than me.  I would speculate 'yes'.  But what is normal?  There appears to be more of a trend in the style these bottles, but bottles categorized as pillar bottles can very quite widely in bottle and painting design. There appears to be only three universal characteristics in this bottle series; 1) column body, 2) concentric ring base, and 3) a dragon design of some type. These were likely made over a 120-160 year period, and would thus also vary with time.

Charll 

Charll,
  It's a stunning bottle, but I have doubts about its age. I'd date it later (1980-2010).
   I've never seen a blue dragon with red scales, though I've seen (and have) a red dragon with blue eyes (#18, 19, 20), and I have 2 blue dragons with a red mouth (#21 & 22). And the red in the pot and in the dragon's ruff seem 'too good' for the old style firing.
Joey

Joey,

This is why I love the forum, for it allows more eyes of view for different perspectives and shared collecting experiences.  What I found interesting about the pillar bottle with copper red hi-lights is that the firing environment was not controlled well from the bottom to the top.  The copper red is progressively washed out as you move up the bottle from the bottom.  Firing of this bottle under contemporary times could have been done in either by wood/charcoal, or any number of natural materials, or even in an electric kiln which can provide complete firing control. 

A contemporary age is possible. But two points of observation, first, if contemporary there is greater opportunity to control the firing environment and one could expect see a more uniform red coloration as seen on other contemporary blue and copper red bottles that are been on the market today.   Second, to date I have not seen any contemporary dragon pillar bottles. 

This bottle was purchased from a Florida auction house and was reported to be in the collection from one of the founding members of the ICSBS.  I tried in vain to have the auction house release the name of the collector, but they were requested not too.  Now this information has no bearing on the likely age of the bottle, but can provided credence that the bottle could be older.

Charll

I agree with Charll 's observation.  :) and a beautiful bottle as well.

Dear Charll,
    I didn't see the difference in the colour of the copper red, and thought it WAS uniform. If it is NOT, and I accept that you have a better ability to judge that then me (since you can hold it, and I can't!), then I would change my dating suggestion to 1880-1920.
    Regardless, it's a stunning bottle.
  Joey

Hi,  you might know that I adore dragons. Here is the last one I bought in underglazed copper red. What do the experts think about it? It has blue eyes!

Georges

Georges,
    Blue eyes are a plus (at least to us Middle Easterners!), but I can't tell if the copper red fired perfectly evenly, in which case it is probably modern, since today the electric kilns can be micro-managed to produce perfect firing temps., or more idiosyncratic, based on an inability to fire exactly, and then it could be older. It looks like a beautiful dragon from 1860-1900, since the scales are cross-hatched with a wash, and not individually painted.
   No offense, Georges, but one eye looks 'squinty'; if it was an Ultra-Orthodox Jew, it would have a harder time finding a match from the 'shadchan' (matchmaker)!  ;) :D
Joey

Thanks, Joey,

 Bernard Lavergne in Paris, where I bought it, thought is was slightly older (first half of the century) but a second opinion is always useful.

Georges

Georges,
   I know Bernard Lavergne, having met him in Brussels at an Asian Arts Expo, and at functions of the ICSBS. He's basically pretty good, but from reading my catalogue (which I didn't write - Robert Kleiner did, and he is considered quite an expert in underglazed porcelains, and was also mentored by John Ault,  arguably the premier collector of underglazed porcelain snuff bottles), I get the idea that the bottles where the dragon's scales are just cross-hatched with a colour wash over (#6 in blue; #20 in red) are ca. 1860-1900,  or possibly 1850-1890.
   Joey

Joey,

I think, if you look very carefully at the dragon's scales on George's bottle, they are not cross-hatched, but painted as individual scallops laid one over the other. Admittedly, they are very well lined up, giving the impression of simple cross-hatch at first glance.

Nice detective job Tom L,

I was almost fooled by my eyes, it was really painted one by one.

Steven

As I stated before, I really think this is an exceptional bottle.  Just love the style, the detail, the shape, the crispness...

Dear Tom,
I too have seen that the scales are individually painted, and was going to write on this yesterday, but actually I didn't for a silly reason: I do not like the face of that dragon. I know I am biased on this because my reference are dragons painted on much bigger porcelain ware.
Dear Charll, I like very much your bottle. Are you sure that the copper red of the upper part of the bottle is misfired? I suppose that it can just be matter of being the dots in the scales painted in more light way, I mean more diluted enamel. I think so because the tone of the red there is the same that you can see in the lower part of the bottle too, where the density of the color is lighter. For example the end of the hairs.
Giovanni

Giovanni, I'm reading your comment on my way to Italy (Bolzano). Why do you dislake the face of my dragon? Is it not ferocious enough in your eyes? It is true that he looks quite friendly (reminds me of the head of my orange belton English setter....)

Georges

Dear Georges,
as I said, my reference are dragons painted on bigger porcelain ware, vases, plates etc.
I have never seen a face like the one of your dragon. It is different from the faces tipically seen on ware dating from early 18th century to late 19th century. I believe that you will not find another face like that. It is also out of proportion, the mandible is thicker than the upper part of the face (maxilla, nose, front). The lenght of the mouth is completely out of proportion with that of the whole head. See the picture below, where your dragon is compared with the one on Charll's bottle. The lines are placed on the same points, lip, corner of the mouth, back of the head. The difference is evident.
Actually, at list for what I can see in the only picture that you have posted, the whole dragon is out of proportion. The legs are too much thin compared to the body, They should be more fat. And the curve of the neck too is unusual.
It is probable that pictures of the whole dragon will change my opinion, what I think is based on a single, not complete picture.
BTW I live not far from Switzerland, I live in Piacenza, 60 km south of Milan. Consider to contact me if you will came here around.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Ooops, forgot the picture. Here it is:

Dear Giovanni,
    I was flabbergasted by your dissection of Georges' dragon's head, and comparison with Charll's dragon's head.
How do the dragons' heads in my book "Dragon" compare? Are any not up to 'snuff'?
    Personally, I don't like #7, though I know that it is rare and relatively early. I know the dragon is SUPPOSED to look drugged or drunk, but it still doesn't please me. I'm not getting rid of it or anything, but it is NOT my favourite dragon.

Dear Georges,

     The detail on my iMAC computer is not good enough - I did not see that the scales were each individually painted. I would date it much earlier, based on the scales; possibly 1780-1820.
Best,
 Joey

Giovanni,

Although it is true that you would expect with some pigments that the more dense, or concentrated, would result in a deeper, richer, color.  Apparently not the case with copper red as explained in the ‘link’ I provided in the initial post with this bottle. Here is a quote from the link;

“The trick is to stop after the first reaction. This can be partially achieved by adding extra ingredients to your glaze mixture, an art virtually lost after the Ming dynasty.  For example, in contrast to your expectations, an extremely low concentration of copper in the glaze (i.e. 0.2-0.5%) gives best results (the most bright red color).  Higher concentrations of copper will lead to the formation of Cu in the glaze (the 2nd reaction) and you get brown areas.” 

The provided link from the Gotheburg site gives some great insight as to the difficulty in the use of copper red and what is needed to achieve uniform coloration.   

Charll

Dear Joey,
if I were forced to choose one of your dragon bottles I would be in serious difficulty. Each one is over the top.
The number 7 is different from the others because it is not a dragon as we generally know them. It is a qilong, although a bit strange one. The qilong or "water dragon" has that face and a slender body, and it is especially recognized by the bifurcated tail. Your one is a bit odd because generally the qilong has no horn. But for sure a super bottle.
Dear Charll, I understand that, but what I mean is the same that happens for example with the hair of the dragon. I don't know how to say it in English. In Italian we say "sfumatura" a tone that progressively change in density, for example the grey tones that are going from black to white, we say that the black "sfuma" into the white. If you take a single hair of the dragon it starts dense and then the color goes progressively lighter toward the tip. So I suppose that what you have on the scales are just light hints of copper red; it is just a supposition.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,
    Thank you for your kind words.
    I didn't realise it was a qilong on #7, but I usually LIKE qilongs.
    I had a number of glass snuff bottles, one in royal blue glass and two in dark green glass,  plain front and reverse, but with qilong writhing up the sides, their tails forming the raised footrim. They were considered to date 1750-1830. Possibly Palace Workshops, because of the colour and quality of the glass.
    But the face, and especially the eyes, give me the creeps. Like clowns do!
Shabbat Shalom,
    Joey

Your opinion on age, shape, glaze, etc....

Cheers,

Curt

BTW, about this bottle...the dragons are painted overglaze while the blue clouds, and others are underglaze.

Dear Curt,
    The painting is superb! The shape looks 'right'.
   Where I have problems are the colour of the underglaze blue, and the PERFECT gilding on the mouth. Because of those two details, I think it is modern.
   Having said that, I'd buy it as a superb example of a modern underglaze cobalt blue/
overglaze iron red decorated porcelain snuff bottle.
   Is it for sale?
Joey

Hi Joey, thank you for your comments.

No I am not looking to sell it.  

Question: is it common to have a bottle to have both underglaze blue and overglaze red?

Thanks

 Curt, It is rare but not unheard of.
     In my catalogue, "In Search of a Dragon", there are two, both with dragons: #23 with an overglaze iron red dragon (on the reverse; don't ask me why it wasn't shown), scrolling clouds and flame, and underglaze cobalt blue dragon, wave design at base and ruyi-head collar and possibly Imperial;
and #111, an Imperial enamelled Qianlong bottle with iron red facing Imperial dragon and waves and cloudwork, loaned by JeremyL on the Forum.
  Joey

Hi Joey,

I will check out these two bottles.  Thanks much.

I bought this bottle in 1999 on ebay from a seller in the US.  I think I spent very little on it.  Anyway, thanks for your opinion on its probable age.

Cheers,

Curt

Hi Curt,

I agree with Joey that its a superbe contemporary bottle!

The reason it can be modern is that the shape of bottle is bit of off in my opinion, for this kind of bottle with very short neck, the mouth should be a little bit wider, almost wide as the bottle itself.

The painting of the dragon and clouds also point to the modern as well, altho they are perfectly painted, might be too perfect...:), also the golden overglze on the mouth is way too good condition.

But, I would say most of collectors would love to have a contemporary like this , which ofcoz including myself.:)

Steven

Hi Steven,

Thanks for sharing your views.  Now you have pointed it out, yes the flared mouth is a bit too small.

Cheers,

Curt

   Good point, Steven. I'd not noticed before, but now that you point it out...

You know, Guys, this type of nit-picking is exactly like the way Orthodox Jews deal with kosher food, or checking details like the points on the leaves of a closed palm frond, and making sure all the leaves on the two willow branches line up 3 to a line, both used in the  ritual of the Four Species (Lulav and Etrog) during Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles).
   We could all get work as kosher food supervisors!  ;D
Joey

Beautiful bottle Curt !

Curt,

A superbly crafted bottle. Is that a ruyi fungus on the base? Probably the maker's 'studio' mark.

Yes it is.

It didn't register first time round, that even the base mark is two-colour!
An attention to detail you rarely find on modern examples.

Cobalt Blue and Copper Red Porcelain Snuff Bottle – Seven Butterflies

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FPorcelain%2520Bottles%2FButterfly_Base_zpssgl29jqk.jpg&hash=d49f58ba63aeebbd9cf98e8c21e58ce1) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Porcelain%20Bottles/Butterfly_Base_zpssgl29jqk.jpg.html) When I first saw this bottle I was overly impressed with the control in the use of the underglaze copper-red and cobalt blue.  The use of each pigment in proximity to each other without breeding over is stunning in comparison to other bottles I've seen with the use of these two pigments in combination.  The underglaze blue and red pigments are fairly true, but each have just a bit of gray undertone. 

Upon receiving the bottle and subsequent close inspection a number of items presented an enigma.  These are:
1)   An unglazed base.  Both the raised foot ring and base of bottle were left unglazed similar to concentric ring based bottles.  Both the unglazed foot rim and bottom base are silky smooth.
2)   The base has a mark in what appears to be unglazed copper-red of what I think is a peony or some other flower.   The resulting effect is like a ‘water mark’ and demonstrates how unglazed pigments appear to have a washed out effect when left unglazed.
3)   The painted lines of the design are crisp and deliberate, and the pigment infills are generally well contained within the lines of the design.   
4)   The wing tails on a number of the red butterflies appear to use a combination brushing of both red and blue pigments to achieve a third, gray, color.   
5)   My initial thought on the dating of this bottle is 1890s to the 1920’s, but I’m now wondering if it could be much earlier.  Daoguang period?

Any confirming thoughts on the quality, theme, and dating of this bottle would be much appreciated.

The bottle is 8.7 cm or 3.5 inches in height without the stopper.   It has an old coral bead for a stopper.  It is said to have been purchased at the Plaza Hotel, New York City, in 1975 and has been in a private collection in Omaha Nebraska since the original purchase.

Thanks for the thoughts and comments, Charll

(https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd517%2Frpfstoneman%2FPorcelain%2520Bottles%2FButterfly_Blue_zpss4gchsvv.jpg&hash=ece5e0f8caf982b45cea63d2bb7f50fd) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/user/rpfstoneman/media/Porcelain%20Bottles/Butterfly_Blue_zpss4gchsvv.jpg.html)

Hi Charll,

A Great looking bottle! And special Mark as well.

If I remembered right, the bottle should come with other two bottles, one is a gorgeous looking dragon bottle.:)

Congratulations on the lot, great purchase.

Steven

You find some of the coolest bottles Charll..

Really beautiful, and congratulations !

Steven, yes you are correct.  The dragon bottle was the main reason for the purchase. It turned out to be a dragon pillar bottle with a concentric ring base that is very similar to the one Richard recently posted.  Will post the other two bottles once have the time to take some pictures.

Charll

Hi Charll

May I know which auction house is this?

Thanks.


Richard

Charll, I am sure you have already considered it, but I have looked and can not find any older ( Daoguang ) bottles with this long neck style.. 

I notice that the raised foot rim has concentric rings.. Kind of strange, and do not know what that means..

Butterflies are a very auspicious motif. It symbolized blessings and happiness, as well as longevity.
A group of butterflies means may you have an accumulation of blessings. Miao Jiahui's painting of butterflies flying in the sky and hovering above the earth ( below ) aptly describes heaven and earth expressing joy. This scene of extravagant joy and rejoicing shows the butterflies flying in pairs (like yours) wich can also stand for joyful encounter.
Many butterflies can have yet another meaning, "may the hundred (all) blessings settle here.

Richard, this was an Ebay purchase from a antique consignor called Lofty; see attached link http://www.lofty.com/.  Type in snuff bottle in Lofty's search box and you'll see all the bottles.

George, thanks for the information.  It will provide additional background when I get around to cataloging the bottle.

Charll 

Charll,

I was waiting to see some other comments before making any myself, as porcelain is not an area I am strong in (which reminds me, where is Giovanni?).

The firing of the two underglaze colours is superbly controlled, as you have pointed out already. And the foot / base is quite unusual and interesting, possibly a studio mark. Based on the foregoing, I would have no hesitation dating this bottle to 1850-1900. However, the shape of the neck bothers me slightly. So far, I have only seen this type of narrow elongated waisted neck on modern bottles. So your suggested dating of 1890-1920 may be closer to the mark.

Tom

Dear Charll,
   
    I have been looking at this bottle since you posted it, and am no closer to a decision whether it is ca.1890-1920, or ca. 1980-2000. The bottle's firing of red and blue has such control, much better than one usually sees from the 19th or early 20th C. 
    People have been known to falsely date the period of their purchases or even just mix up bottles and when and where they were acquired. Unless there is a dated cert. of authenticity with an attached photo, I would date this to the later period.  In the 1970s and 1980s, all Chinese antique shops in Hong Kong produced such certs. I have examples from YF Yang,  King Feng, Peter Li, Yuen Fung, Raymond Li, and others. The style of leaves at the top, which one sees on larger vessels,  I've not seen on snuff bottles, that I can recall.
   But without handling the piece, I'm not sure one way or the other.
Best,
 Joey

Dear Charll,
what a strange bottle. The copper red is particularly well fired, but the white has a strange yellowish tone. It has the same looking of yellowed varnish, but it doesn’t seems that it has been restored. I share what already said by others regarding the shape of the neck, and I think that Joey is right about the decoration on the neck, that is highly unusual. I would also say that the butterflies too are very unusual. I pay great attention to the butterflies because I continue wondering why butterflies are never realistically painted in Chinese art (at least I have never seen one). Said that, I think that I have never seen the butterfly as seen in your bottle. Usually they have long and very thin legs, not so short as we see on your bottle. So I am not sure about dating. I would agree with Joey, although the base looks older.
I did look at the site of your link. The dragon bottle is really superb!! But the description of the lot is funny:
“The third bottle is painted with a mounted horseman and bears a spurious Youngzhen Mark but is not Ming Dynasty, it was created during the Qing Period”. I didn’t know that Yongzheng were a Ming Emperor.:) Unless, instead of Yongzheng, they really meant Youngzhen as they has written. If so, who was Young Zhen? Did he later become Old Zhen?:)
Seriously speaking now, they are selling a famille verte dish as being genuine Kangxi but it is clearly not, it is a Guangxu dish in Kangxi style IMO.
With this I am not saying that he is not an honest seller, he is just wrong.
Dear Tom and all, please excuse my absence. I am still here, but very busy so I just have a quick look at the site late in the night before to go to sleep. I am busy for many reasons, one of them being that I start to sell some stuffs on ebay and guys, that takes a lot of time! I was not expecting that. I did start to sell something because I have too much things and for fund raising. Anyway yesterday I went to an Antique fair and have found a few bottles that I will share soon.
Kind regards
Giovanni

All,

Another recent Cobalt Blue and Copper Red Porcelain Snuff Bottle acquision, and a match to the Seven Butterfly bottle previously posted.

The first bottle came out of a long established collection of a Florida collector and this second matched bottle was found at a recent action in the UK.  When I saw this second bottle I could not help myself in trying to pair them up!!!  ;D

Charll

So very nice that you were able to match it up..

Congratulations !

A rather unusual pattern on the shoulders below the lingzhi patterned collar that I do not recall ever seeing before.

Congratulations Charll,

There are few events in a collector's life as rewarding as bringing together 'old acquaintances' from different corners of the world, such as you have done with these two bottles.

Tom

Dear All,

It has been a while since I posted any bottles on the forum. Apologies for the absence. I have one to share on this thread. Enjoy....

Description:
An underglaze red copper-oxide and blue cobalt-oxide porcelain snuff bottle of cylindrical form, with cylindrical neck, convex lip, a glazed mouth and interior, and a recessed plain glazed base surrounded by a raised circular footrim; painted in flowing copper-red brushstrokes with a scene of a fisherman holding his fishing rod over an expanse of water as he sits on a bank under a willow tree, near a rocky hillside, the neck and base with twinned bands of underglaze cobalt blue. Coral stopper carved in the form of a coiled chilong.

Height: 7.6 cm
Tentative dating: 1820-1880

Additional commentary:
Rustic pictorial scenes executed in loose and simple strokes of the artist's brush, as in the present example, appeal to me. I particularly like the fact that a large area of the 'canvas' has been left blank, the artist resisting the temptation to fill the entire surface. The theme of a lone fisherman in a pastoral setting was a popular one, since it stereotyped the scholar in a idealized existence. As with all the bottles in this thread, controlling the two colours combined required technical skill. Here the underglaze red has fired with particular success, showing good colour and gradation of hue, turning green-grey where it thins out at the tips of the foliage.

Provenance: Hamilton Collection, 2003 (no. 223)

Hello wattana,

I am a complete inexperienced in this type of snuff bottles, but I find it very beautiful, besides the stopper is very very beautiful!
We will wait for the opinions of the experts.

Thanks for sharing,
Albert.

Dear Tom,
very nice and most important, if I am not wrong, very interesting.
I do not know if what I am seeing is due to the nature of copper red under glaze decoration, which usually is less sharp of the underglaze blue cobalt, or if it is instead due to the painting technique.
It seems to me that the second possibility is the valid one. I am not expert on Chinese painting, but to me here we have a particular painting style, similar to that which we can see on this dish of mine, which has been described as being painted in Jiaomo (dried-ink) style Chinese landscape painting.
It is dated Spring 1905, and signed Wang You Tang, a known artist which is also known as Wang Di.
It is the first time that I see a snuff bottle painted that way. I particularly like also the perfect execution of the base and foot. Very nice, thank you for posting it.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Giovanni and Albert,
Thank you for your comments. The forum has gone very quiet lately!

Dear Giovanni, I always appreciate your opinion when it comes to porcelain, as that is not one of my strong points. The style on my bottle is what I would describe as spontaneous and 'painterly', since I am not familiar with the term 'Jiaomo'. But if the dish you posted is an example of this technique, then I understand. It is a style I have seen often on blue underglaze, but rarely on red underglaze wares.
I am not sure how the artist achieved the graduation of colour on this bottle from red to green-grey, but it looks like the brush strokes on the tips of the grasses are done by finishing each stroke quickly and lightly, depositing relatively little 'ink' at the end. At least, that is how I would expect it to be done on paper or silk.

Regards,
Tom   

Dear Tom,
those color changes in underglaze red are normal, it may change from red to green to brown, depending on factors like temperature and especially the type of kiln atmosphere.
Nice bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Dear Tom,

     A superb example, which I wish I had in my own collection.  ::) ;D
I had meant to comment on it 9 days ago or so, and opened up a window on my computer screen. But dealing with stuff here [in Israel] caused me to 'lose' it. I just found it again.
I also don't recognise the term Giovanni used, but recognise the beauty of the painting.
Congraulations.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you saw this bottle on one of your visits. But it was probably like when one tries to 'do' an art gallery in two hours.......50% of the items viewed are quickly forgotten.   ;) 

Best,
Tom 

Dear Tom,

     I did see it, and I believe I told you about my unfortunate interactions with Harriet Hamilton, who was a prior owner. Great provenance from a person I really loathed.

     Harriet Hamilton was the great granddaughter of Adolph Claus Spreckels, through his son John Spreckels and granddaughter Lillie. Claus Spreckels  [he rarely used his given first name] was nicknamed the 'Maui Sugar King' in the late 1870s & 1880s, after he in effect, controlled major land on Maui and grew sugar there. He originally bought or leased over 40,000 acres, around Spreckelsville on Maui, but through his connections with King David Kalakaua, was able to eventually control much more.

Claus Spreckels was also the one for whom the term 'Sugar Daddy' was coined [he had a number of very young girlfriends late in life, as young as his granddaughters or even great granddaughters].
And he also built the Del Coronado Hotel and the Spreckels Mansion, both in Coronado CA.

     On second thought, better it be in your collection, where you can enjoy it with no negative feelings towards the 'bestower of provenance' [I just made that up ::) :o ;)], than in mine. It would remind me of Harriet Hamilton.

    Actually, I just had a thought - I could own it - as the 'Wattana' Provenance bottle!
With you as the source, I'd only have good thoughts of sharing knowledge and good food, whether made by Nant or in restaurants in Bangkok.

   Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Thanks for the interesting background of Harriet Hamilton. I have the book of her collection (with all of its misinformation), but it of course mentions nothing of her family history.

I hate to disappoint, but the provenance of my bottle is Mr. and Mrs. Hamilton (their first names escape me) who sold off their collection via Sotheby's in 2003. I do not believe there is any connection between that couple and Harriet Hamilton.

Best,
Tom

Dear Tom,

     Unless I'm seriously mistaken, the Mr. & Mrs. Hamilton whose bottle you bought in 2003, inherited it from Harriet Hamilton, on her passing in 1997.
Was the Mr. Hamilton, Edward Morse Hamilton Jr., of Atherton CA ? 
If not, then I've no impediments to buying that beautiful bottle [other than your unreasonable refusal to sell it!  ::) :o ;D].
Enjoy it in good health,
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

I honestly don't remember. I will need to locate my copy of the auction catalog before confirming the couple's first names.

As for your other comments.........noted !!!

Best,
Tom

Dear Tom,

      My mistake.
      It was the collection of Ann & John Hamilton, from Houston TX. I met them at the Washington DC convention in 2000 and then at the Houston convention in 2001. I did not attend the Singapore convention in 2002, because my late mom wanted me with her when she got radiation therapy at that time.

     They didn't attend the LA convention in 2003.
Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

That's them! Ann and John Hamilton from Houston, Texas.
Thanks for the memory jolt. Saves me having to find the catalog.....  :D

Best,
Tom

All,

Here is the unglazed blue and copper red bottle that I made reference to in the post of the 'soft paste cobalt blue Lotus Scroll' bottle.  This was acquired as a two bottle lot, in which I was going after the Lotus Scroll bottle.   

Blue & Copper Red Porcelain Snuff Bottle:
Cylindrical body with a motif of eleven copper red bats (fu) flying amongst a field of blue ruyi fungus (lingzhi).  Double-line blue borders around the bottle base and top of neck that frame the design.  Appears to be coil ring construction with a glazed interior.  Bottle sets over an inset raised unglazed foot ring with an apocryphal blue Kangxi mark encircled with a single blue ring on the base.  Height is 3 5/8th inches or 8.5 cm without stopper.  Stopper is blue enameled brass in the form of a Chinese official’s hat.

Designs within double-line borders is often a sign of 18th century decoration, but this piece is obviously ‘Kangxi Revival’. 

The bat is a pun for “blessings” (fu) and the fungus in this case is likely a rebus for “may your wishes come true” (Source: Hidden Meaning in Chinese Art, Terese Tse Bartholomew, 2006).  Many bats (fu) in a field of fungus (lingzhi) is likely the bestowment to one of “Many Blessings and May all Your Wishes Come True”.   

Period: ca. late 19th or early 20th century, maybe later.

Condition: Pristine, but obvious firing control issues as seen by the greying out in the copper red.  No stopper or spoon at purchase.

Obviously I am still trying to work out the lighting contrast consistency in my cheap camera photography. 

Charll   

Nice bottle Charll, congratulations..   That stopper is especially wonderful :)

Dear Charll,

    Like George, I also love the stopper.
But I prefer the Lotus flower heads bottle.
Best,
Joey

One of my best fired copper red dragons [80mm].

Impressive bottle.

This is one of the most interesting bottles I have found. It was displayed at the Walters Museum for the 2018 convention, but no one noticed it. The only bottle I have where the top was made to be part of the design. If you look at the second photo you will see the MOP collar is notched and the glaze is missing on the neck of the bottle. This is the spot where the plume of bats is escaping the bottle. 75mm

Interesting bottle, John.

Are there 5 bats on the bottle?

Dear John, how interesting. Really interesting, and the quality of the underglaze copper red bats is very high, either for the quality of the drawing and firing.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Richard and Giovanni, there are indeed 5 bats. The bats are well painted but show some misfiring of the copper red....John

Hi John

Thanks. Just want to make sure that no one escapes!  ;D ;D

In Chinese, the bat sounds similar to Fu (福 blessing) and there is a common phrase, Wu Fu Lin Men (五福临门)  which means Five Blessings. Sometimes they were shown surrounding the Shou medallion, indicating longevity and blessings.

For your reference.


Richard

This is a rare example of a copper red bottle with 3 cobalt blue lines [83mm]. The glaze has a soft polish to it, concentric rings on the base. I found the bottle at the Bonham's and Butterfields sale in 2006....John

Very nice example of an underglazed Copper Red decorated porcelain snuff bottle [with the underglazed blue lines].
Joey

Link: https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1491.0/msg,60181.html

John, I noticed this bottle at the Walters and remember it quite well.  I was intrigued by the design and very much appreciated it being on display.  I also recall going back a couple of times to take a second and third look at this bottle while we were there.

Attached is another bottle with a near similar design from that just sold on eBay from an Idaho location.  Note the bats in this design are going both directions; in and out. Maybe a later copy of the design?  Your bottle appears to be much better.

Charll

Charll, I saw the bottle. I did not like the way the bats were painted and of course the firing of the cobalt....John

Yes, John.
A very impressively fired Copper Red decorated bottle.
Joey

Dear Charll,

     I was doubting whether the bottle from Idaho you posted, which is like John's, though not a patch on it,
is not modern.
Joey

This next bottle is an impressive 90mm. It features an unusual 3-clawed cobalt dragon covered by copper red clouds. I have only seen a couple of dragons with 3 claws. Only slight misfiring to the copper.

All, there are a number of these bottles around with this design and I was finally able to acquire one in 2016. 

Underglaze Cobalt Blue and Copper Red Porcelain Snuff Bottle:
A cylindrical form bottle on a broad raised unglazed circular foot rim depicting two five clawed dragons entangled amongst billowing, circular, copper red clouds in pursuit of a flaming red pearl.  The dominate (upper) dragon is depicted in cobalt blue with copper red highlighting and the subordinate (lower) dragon is in copper red.  Great firing control of both the cobalt blue and copper red pigments to maintain detail of the painting without blurring and/or burning out the copper red.  Coil ring construction with a glazed interior.  Stopper is a domed green glass cabochon imitating aventurine with a simple bone spoon.  Height is 7.2 cm without the stopper and main body of the bottle is 3.2 cm wide.

Period: ca. late 19th century into the Republican Period.

Condition: Very good with minor abraded surface due to with use and/or age.

Provenance:  Babylon Auction and Appraisal Inc., Asian Art and Collectibles, 31 July 2016, Deer Park, NY, Lot 136.
                      A Mr. Bolger, a private Virginia collector, who was collecting Chinese snuff bottles for the over 40 years.

Charll

P.S.- the last photo is of the bottle's interior which is a visual to my comments on 'coil ring construction' that I often refer to in bottle descriptions.

John & Charll,

   Both of the last two bottles are very interesting, and I believe
may be dated to ca.1875-1915.
Best,
Joey

Charll, very nice firing of the red on your bottle. This next example is one of my favorite dragon bottles with copper red [75mm].

John,

   The Underglazed Red & Blue on White with the Dragons [I just saw the second dragon!] is superb,
and definitely Daoguang period [ca. 1821 - 1850].
I love the blue dots inside the red crosshatched scales.
Thank you for posting it!
Best,
Joey

Dear John, I see why this last bottle is one of your favorites.
It is one of my favorites too 😊😊
What a nice bottle!
Kind regards
Giovanni

Love this bottle too!  It seems so alive and vibrant!  You can almost see the dragon move!!!!  ;)

Everyone, thanks for your nice comments. The next bottle [81mm] uses the red to completely cover the bottle. Interesting painting on the bottom of the bottle.

John,
 Yes, interesting, but not my taste.
Best,
Joey

Most unusual bottle.  Thanks for sharing John.

I like this one a lot. It is interesting that the dragon is painted in a way that it appears to go through the bottle (clouds), from one side to the other.

I thank everyone for their comments. There are several variations of this theme. The next bottle shows two views of Sun Wu Kong the Monkey King with his staff.

Beautiful example, John.
Thank you for posting it.
Joey

The next example is another variation on the hidden dragon theme [66mm]. The misfiring of some of the copper is giving the bottle a different look. Museum mark on the bottom.

Dear John,

     I'm assuming that [59.111] refers to 1959, and item #111.
Any idea in which museum it was catalogued in 1959?
Best,
joey

Joey, most of these small auctions do not disclose the name of the consignor or any info about the item. In regards to the next bottle, the red is fired very well and has an exceptionally large mouth opening [80mm].

This example with 9 blue dragons on a red wave ground is well painted [77mm].

My favorite Nezha bottle from the Collection of the Blue Dragon Lady [74mm]. This shows a powerful Nezha on top of the Dragon King, his ring raised to strike.

Dear John,
The first dragon bottle from these three, I thought quite good.
   I didn’t like the second bottle, because it too busy to my eye.
The third one - what’s a ‘Nezha’?
Bedt,
Joey
 

Joey, Nezha is the boy hero with the ring. The same motif as Charll's bottle on the sidebar in the forum spotlight....John

Thank you, John.
I saw Charll’s post as well.
I think the meatball part grossed me out.
Best,
Joey

The next bottle has been used. Nice snuff smell from the inside [59mm]. I found it at a local antique show in 2000.

Dear John,

   I think I’d date this bottle to ca. 1880 - 1920.
Interesting example.
Best,
Joey

Joey, I would agree with that dating. The next bottle I showed in the B&W underglaze section reply #217. The Water Margin story, this time painted with copper red [80mm]. I bought the bottle from my good friend Thomas Quinn when he sold his collection in 2013. He passed in 2014.

A nice example, John.
Best,
Joey

Thanks Joey. Another of my favorite dragon bottles [69mm] purchased from Victor Topper in 1999. Impressive painting and firing of the copper red.

Very nice bottle John!  I particularly like the mixed cobalt blue and copper red dragon part of the design.  I presume that is a tiger figure mark on the base?  Anyway, another bottle to my taste.

Charll 

Charll, glad you like the bottle. Really a sad looking tiger!

The next pair are my other two NeZha bottles, possibly by the same hand. Tallest is [79mm] bought from two different auctions in 2010 and 2019. Perhaps Richard can help with the calligraphy.

Hi John

The two characters mean Dragon's palace, referring to the palace of the dragon king in the sea.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, thanks for the translation. I am assuming that the figure with his arms raised is the Dragon King and NaZha is fighting the son? I thought in the story that NaZha killed the son earlier?

John, I agree with Charll - this bottle is really my taste.
And somehow, the blue swastika design is not distracting,
but makes the red and blue  dragon project beautifully.
Joey

Hi John

Yes, the one beneath NeZha is the dragon prince.

The presentation style here is like the comic way of presentation. It helps the viewer to understand the subject better.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, now I get it. It helps the viewer see the whole story. The next bottle [85mm] has a fisherman but the way it is painted looks like a big eyeball where the head should be! I found it at an auction in 2016.

Beautiful, but after taking care of my godson for 9 hours straight,
I’m fading.
Best,
Joey

Another beauty John.  Joey I am sure you are fading!!!

Jo, thanks for the comment. Joey, don't fade too far! The next bottle I was told is a famous poet [90mm]. I will leave it to Richard to confirm. I found it at an auction in 2017.

Hi John

The sage on the bottle is indeed Li Bai, the poet from the Tang dynasty. The inscription reads Li Qing Lian.

It is another name for Li Bai as Qian Lian is his nickname. Qing Lian literally means green lotus.

For the Chinese, a person's name is of utmost importance. There are two ways for the word name in Chinese. One is Xingming (姓名) which can be broken up into two parts, the family name (Xing) and the given name (Ming). The other term for the name is Mingzi (名字) which again, can be divided into two parts. The first is the given name (Ming) and the second is an alias one gives to oneself when he reaches adulthood (Zi). This is a standard practice among the educated and the literati.

To confuse matters further, one can also have a nickname and even more than one. This is a customary practice among poets, writers, court officials, and artists.

Again, the nickname can be given by oneself or given by others. It can also be attributed to a certain event/talent/skill/etc.

So, in this example, Qing Lian is a nickname Li Bai gives it himself. But he also had other nicknames that were given by others, like Shi Xian (诗仙), the god of poems, and Jiu Xian (酒仙), the god of wine.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
 

Insightful!  Thanks Richard for taking the time to provide us this cultural information.   Charll

Hi Charll

You are welcome!

Just to add, there was another two-character inscription, Hua Zun on the bottle which means flower garden.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, thanks for the lesson on Chinese names. I had no idea they were so complicated.

Richard,

That's fascinating. Thanks for the lesson.

Brian

Yes, Richard.
Many of us got interested in Chinese Art as a way of learning about China
And her culture.
Thank you,
Joey

Hi all

Thanks.

To illustrate it further, here is another example.

Most of you will know about Su Dongpo, the poet from the Song dynasty.

However, Dongpo is actually his art name/nickname. His given name is Su Shi (苏轼), alias Zizhan (子瞻), art names/nicknames Dongpo (东坡居士, 东坡 in short), and Tiě guān dàoren (铁冠道人) which literally means the Iron Crown Taoist.

Just to add, the Chinese have a traditional naming system in their family and clan. For example, Su Shi's younger brother is named Su Zhe (苏辙). From their given names, you will notice that they have the same radical in them, the left portion (车). With this, it is quite easy to identify which generation a person belongs to in the clan for the same generation will share the same radicals or pattern.

Another example is the seven sons of Yang Ye (杨业) in the novel The Yang Family Generals. Their names are:

杨延平 Yang Yanping
杨延定 Yang Yanding
杨延庆 Yang Yanqing
杨延辉 Yang Yanhui
杨延德 Yang Yande
杨延昭 Yang Yanzhao
杨延嗣 Yang Yansi
 
You will notice that they all have a common middle character in their names, Yan (延). The Chinese clan also maintains a genealogy record (family tree) and so one can easily locate and identify the order of their seniors, peers, or juniors by looking at their names.

Some may ask how do the parent named their children in the same clan if they are from different families?

Well, the genealogy record will have a written script to follow. This script is sometimes a poem or a classical text. The name will be given according to the order of the text in the record.

Of course, this rule of naming is not strictly followed nowadays although some families still practice it.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Dear Richard,

   You are our own encyclopedia of Chinese Culture!
Thank you.
 Best
Joey

Thanks Joey!

You just made my head swell!  ;D ;D ;D

The traditional Chinese has a strict system of naming their male children. If anyone is interested, I will elaborate on it.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, please do! You are making my head hurt before I have to go to the convention.

Dear Richard,

  That sounds very interesting.
Please educate us.
Joey

Hi all

Here are the details for the Chinese naming system:

When the feudal system was established during the Zhou dynasty (1050 - 256 BC), the hierarchical order of society was introduced. This was further strengthened after Confucius' teachings which stressed that every man has his position in society and should adhere to it.

Therefore, when a child reaches adulthood, the name (Zi字) given will follow a certain pattern in the order of seniority.

The eldest child will adopt the middle character Bo (伯), the next one is Zhong (仲), followed by Shu (叔) and Ji (季) respectively.

One may ask what about the subsequent children? Well, they are considered insignificant, and all can be named Ji (季).

This naming convention can apply to the ladies as well, but they are rarely followed.

In the classical novel, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the warlord of the state of Wu, Sun Jian (孙坚) had many children out of which five were boys. They are therefore named according to the order:

Sun Ce 孙策, 字伯符 (Bo Fu)
Sun Quan 孙权, 字仲谋 (Zhong Mou)
Sun Yi 孙翊, 字叔弼 (Shu Bi)
Sun Kuang 孙匡, 字季佐 (Ji Zo)
Sun Lang 孙朗, 字早安 (Zao An)

However, this naming order only applies to the children borne by the original wife. It is common in ancient China for a man to have a wife and many concubines.

As you can see from the above list, the fifth child, Sun Lang did not follow the order as he was the child of Sun Jian's concubine. In ancient Chinese society, the children borne by the original wife were known as Di Chu (嫡出). They have a higher status even if they are years younger than their siblings from the concubine.

The child from the concubine is known as Shu Chu (庶出) and is not allowed to use this naming system. Only the eldest child can have the middle character Meng (孟) as an indication. There was no naming rule for subsequent children.
 
Again, in the same novel, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the powerful warlord Cao Cao's (曹操) Zi is Meng De (孟德), is a child of a concubine.

Similarly, another famous hero, Ma Chao's (马超) Zi is Meng Qi (孟起).

These indicate that they are the eldest child from a concubine and therefore can only adopt the Zi Meng (孟) as part of their names.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard


P.S. Hahaha John. I hope the above will not add to your headaches!  ;D ;D ;D

Fascinating, Richard.

Much more complicated than the Norman style adopted by the Irish
After Earl Strongbow from Wales, a Norman noble, started to conquer
Ireland in 1169.
Sons of a noble by his Legal wife, for example Gerald, were O’Gerald.
But sons of Gerald by a mistress or a tavern maid, were Fitzgerald.

Best,
Joey

Everyone, I am back from the convention and will start posting some more bottles. This example [55mm] is well painted with some misfiring of the copper. The man with the sword reminds me of the Water Margin story. Maybe Richard can confirm.

Dear John,

   The first 3 characters [right side top to bottom] look like Qianlong Nian.
I'm sorry but I don't recognise the next 3.
Best,
Joey

Hi John

An interesting bottle.

However, the scene is too generic to specify any story. There is also no prominent character in it. But it looks like preparation for battle.

Joey, the other three characters are "made by the official kilns".

Regards.


Richard

Thank you Richard.
In that case, I should have recognised them.
I have a B & W bottle with Japanese-style Mons [Medallions?] on it,
made by the Imperial Kilns in Jingdezhen, with that exact inscription,
"Made by the Official Kilns", #105 in "Dragon".
It was made during the 2 or 3 years the Taiping criminals controlled
Jingdezhen and environs, ca. 1853/1854 to 1855/1856.
They weren't allowed to put the Xianfeng Emperor's seal,
and wouldn't put the Taiping pretender's mark.
Then, when the Qing Forces were going to retake the city,
the Taiping criminals forced about 5,000-6,000 inhabitants into slavery,
murdered the rest of the roughly 20,000 population, destroyed the kilns
and the whole city, and withdrew.
It was only rebuilt and working again in 1865, under the Tongzhi Emperor
[who was 9, at the time].
Best,
Joey

Richard and Joey, thanks for the information. So I guess the bottle could be dated 1853 to 1856?

Yes John.
Or ca.1854 - 1857.
So ca. 1853 - 1857, during the 2-3 years of the Taiping occupation of
Jingdezhen.
and compare with #105 in "Dragon".
Best,
Joey

This next example is matching to the one I posted in the B&W thread [80mm]. From a small auction I found in 2010.

The next bottle is one of my earliest copper red examples [61mm]. I found it at a local auction in 2000. I like the way the hawk is looking at his dinner.

Dear. John,

    I can't make out what he's looking at.
It might not be his dinner.

The bottom character is 'yu' [Jade]. It is the character for King ['wang'],
with a dot  on the right side, between the bottom 2 horizontal strokes.

I don't recognise the top character.
Best,
Joey

As I recall the mark is "jade trinket", referencing a small treasure.  One of the few marks I know!!! Charll

Well Charll, you did better than me...
Best,
Joey

Hi Joey & John

The two characters on the base is Wan Yu, meaning "playing jade".

For your information.

Regards.


Richard


P.S. John, I will get back to you on the other porcelain bottle later.

Richard,

   What does "playing Jade" mean?
Or do you mean "Jade Plaything"?
Best,
Joey

Hi Joey

They are the same characters but in reverse order.

Regards.


Richard

Everyone, I think the hawk is looking at a mouse with a long skinny tail. I believe that Charll is correct as I have seen that translation in several reference books.

OK, John. I must admit I just saw a grey oval 'yoke'.
A 'yoke' in Ireland is anything you don't know how to describe...  ::) :o :D
Best,
Joey

Joey, I think I have had to use the 'yoke' several times. The next bottle features a deer hunt on horseback [73mm], from a small auction in 2018.

Very interesting subject, John.
I have this on Middle period IPSBs, but I don't believe on
a B & W snuff bottle.
I do have a horseman firing an arrow skyward, #36 in "Dragon".
Best,
Joey

Joey, I remember seeing it on one of your bottles but I think it is rare on porcelain. The next bottle features a city on the water, an island nearby [86mm]. From an internet auction in 2010. Richard, I believe that is a flag in the first picture.

John,  in the first shot, I see 2 flags/pennants with calligraphy.
Beautiful, and a very rare subject.
Best,
Joey

Lovely John!  You have the eye for picking out some outstanding bottles.  Thanks for sharing your finds with us .

Hi John

The name on the two flags read Jiujang Pass, Jiujang means Nine Rivers.

This was a gantry set up during the Qing dynasty to collect tax from passing merchants.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard

Dear Richard,

    What is a 'gantry'? Like a Customs station?
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Hi Joey

Yes, exactly.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, you taught me a new word! Thanks so much for the translation.

Richard,

 I knew the word 'gantry' before as the framework holding up rockets before they were fired from
Cape Canaveral, where the Kennedy Space Center is located.
 Shabbat Shalom,
Best,
Joey

The next bottle is the Journey to the West story [81mm]. The calligraphy looks different from the other bottle I posted. Maybe Richard can explain the flames? From an auction in 2012.

Hi John

You are right.

This is a story from the Journey to the West, chapters 44 to 48.

The name of the location is Huo Yun Dong, which means Five Cloud Cave. The owner is a young demon known as the Red Child. He is the son of the Bull Demon King (2nd photo) and the Princess of the Iron Fan (1st photo). He is shown in the last photo with the name of the cave above him. His cave is located at Huo Yan Shan, the Flaming Mountain.

One of his special techniques is to use fire as a weapon.

In the story, he captured the Monkey King's teacher, and hence, they have a big fight. The Monkey King is shown a the top of the second photo.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, thanks for the information. Now the flames make sense. The next bottle [66mm] has a banquet scene. I do not know if it has any special meaning. The mark is well done and it came with the serious silver snuff spoon. From an internet auction in 2012.

Hi John

From the photos, I guessed this is the story of the assassination of the king of state Wu, Liao.

The incident happened during the late Spring and Autumn era, before the warring states period (770 to 476 BC) in the state of Wu.

The Prince of Wu, Gong Zi Guang felt that he should be the legitimate candidate for the throne as he was the eldest in line. Instead, his cousin, Liao had taken the throne.

As such, Gong Zi Guang engaged Zhuan Zhu, a butcher by origin to assassinate the king.

Zhuan Zhu disguised himself as a servant during a dinner hosted by King Liao. He hid a short but sharp sword in the stomach of a fish. While serving the dish to Liao, he suddenly took the sword and killed King Liao. However, the palace guards also killed him.

Upon Liao's death, Gong Zi Guang became the new king of Wu.

Zhuan Zhu was considered one of the five great assassins in Chinese history.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, again your knowledge of Chinese history really impresses me. The next bottle [81mm] also needs an explanation. I have seen this motif before but would like the whole story. From a small auction in 2000.

Dear John,

   I'm sorry, but the mark shown in post # 159 is actually one of the more poorly
 drawn marks I've seen on your bottles.
Look at the mark on the bottle before and the one on the bottle you posted after;
they are much superior.
Having said that, it still could be 'of the period', just not an Imperial mark.

Dear Richard,

    I agree with John about the breadth of your knowledge about Chinese History,
Literature and Culture [Zhongwen].
But on the list of The Five Greatest Assassins?
OK, Four Greatest Scholars; Four Greatest Artists; Four Greatest Calligraphers;
Four Greatest Poets; but Four Greatest Assassins ? Really?
Joey

Joey, I agree that the mark on post #159 is not "up to snuff " but could still be of the period.

Hi Joey

Thanks for your feedback. Perhaps 'great' should be more appropriate than 'greatest'.

The Chinese tend to group people or objects of the same characteristics and talent together, like the four great beauties, the four classical novels, etc. They are usually formed of people or objects from the same (or about) the same period.

In this instance, the five great assassins (not four) were all from the early Chinese history of the Spring and Autumn period and the Warring States era.

They were recorded in one of the earliest historical records, Shiji (史记) written by a historian of the Han dynasty, Sima Qian (司马迁).

Of course, there were many other assassins in Chinese history after that but these five are the ones who were officially recognised as prominent representatives.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Hi John

The last bottle appears to be Su Dongpo at the Red Cliff but I am not too sure about it.

The cause for this is that the boy attendant appears to be stepping on top of the waves but the figures with the monk seems to be the right scene.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Dear Richard,

    I knew about the Chinese tradition to group things, and from similar periods.
But it seems odd to group Assassins...
Oh, and thank you, I've corrected my post to say 5...
Best,
Joey
 

Richard, thanks for the clarification on the 5 "great" assassins. I read the condensed version of the Red Cliff in the journal, but I do not remember 2 boats or the child coming from the waves.

Hi John

That's exactly where I have my doubt on the subject.

Would explore further and see whether I can find something more appropriate.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, if you can figure out the meaning of this bottle [78mm] you will be the G.O.A.T. [Greatest of all time].

Hi John

This is an unusual and interesting subject.

Let me do some research on it.

Regards.


Richard

Dear John,

    That does seem quite a mishmash of subjects.

Good luck, Richard.
But I've faith that if anyone can figure it out,
it will be you.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

The next bottle I believe is an Immortal [67mm]. Maybe Richard can elaborate. From a small auction in 2013.

John, I don't know about the figure, but this snuff bottle
is a beautifully potted vessel.
Best,
Joey

Hi John

The character is too generic to determine his identity.

Are those peaches behind him?

Regards.


Richard

Richard, that could be peaches. Close up view.

Hi John

He looks like Shou Lao, the god of longevity.

However, he seems to be in a rush.  ;D ;D

Regards.


Richard

Richard, if it is Shou Lao I have never seen him move that fast. The next bottle [81mm] is painted with a figure similar to Princess Iron Fan. Perhaps the banners give some clue? Found on a internet auction in 2008.

Beautiful bottle, albeit a bit tall for my taste.
Who is Princess Iron Fan?
Best,
Joey

Joey, see reply #157 in this thread. She is a character from the story Journey to the West.

OK. Thanks, John.
Best,
Joey

The next example is the only one I have in copper red with the Dragon Couple stealing the water of Beijing [85mm]. From a small auction in 2008.

Perhaps Richard knows what is going on with this painting [74mm]. It looks like someone serving a hot platter of food. From a small auction in 2013.

The mark is upside down, John.
Interesting bottle.
The figure on the other side looks to be in badly fired copper red.
Joey

Hi John

The motif is too generic to specify any story.

Regards.


Richard

Joey, I know the bottle is misfired but I was more concerned with the motif. Richard, I believe this next bottle [83mm] has the same motif as the other I posted with the woman and child. From the Collection of the Blue Dragon Lady.

Dear John,

    I only raised it because I intended to ask [but forgot - I was distracted ::) :o],
is the man in copper red Dutch [because his hat looks Western],
and does he have a rifle with a white stock on his right side?
Or do my eyes deceive me?
Best,
Joey

Hi John

Yes, this bottle is like the other one you posted before. In this case, the drawing of the baby in the lady's arms is more obvious.

I have a story in mind, but more research is required to confirm the subject.

Regards.


Richard

Joey, I do not know what that is but it does not look like a rifle.

OK.
Best,
Joey

Hi Joey & John

This figure is dressed in an official uniform.

In my opinion, the object looks like a sword to me.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, I think you are correct. It looks like the hilt of a sword. This next example [70mm] of Zhong kui is interesting. His hat, chest harness, belt and tassel are all in a dark copper red. From an internet auction in 2017.

The next example [74mm] features a fisherman and a pretty successful firing of the copper red. It has an unusually thin neck. From an auction in 2016.

Very nice John. 

John,

   It is another beautiful example, and the copper red has fired really well, as you said.
Is it relatively light in weight?
If so, I would reckon it is another fine example from ca. 1865 - 1900.
Best,
Joey

Jo, thanks for the comment. Joey, the bottle has very thin walls. I would agree with that dating. The next example [67mm] is the rider on the tiger. I believe the ICSBS journal had an article on that story. Maybe Richard can confirm. An early auction find from 2002.

John, this simply shows us that superb quality painting was done as late as 1900.
In fact even today there are top quality painters doing beautiful
B & Ws.
Best,
Joey

Joey, there was a lot of excellent work done after 1865. This next bottle [78mm] has the 8 Horses of King Mu. Nice firing of the red. From an internet auction in 2017.

Yes, the copper red is well fired
Best,
Joey

The next example [83mm] has a matching bottle sold from the Bloch Collection 11-26-13  #132. From an internet auction in 2015.

An interesting subject, John.
And very well fired.
Congratulations.
Best,
Joey

Hi John & all

I refer to John's bottle in thread #195.

Thanks for providing the reference article in the ICSBS Journal, Winter 1998 issue.

I have read the article and found that the motif on John's bottle looks like the one in the article. However, there is a big difference.

The example in the article is Zhao Gongming, a general in the classical novel, The List of Gods (Feng Shen Bang). It records the war between the last Shang dynasty and the upcoming Zhou dynasty. The story involves many deities as well as humans and Zhao is one of them who supports the Shang dynasty. In the story, he was a middle-aged warrior riding a black tiger. He was later considered the military god of wealth. (The other civil god of wealth was Lu, one of the three gods normally featured together as Fu Lu Shou).

However, in John's example, the man featured was a young man who did not dress like a warrior. There are two possibilities: one, it was a poor copy of Zhao's subject. Two, it could be another character who I am not able to identify now.

I attached the images here for your reference.

The first was the one featured in the journal, Zhao Gongming. The second is a print of Zhao Gongming. The third is the character on John's bottle and the last is from another illustration from a different story whose identity is currently unknown.

Regards.


Richard

Dear Richard,

  Another very detailed but fascinating explanation.
Thank you.
A Joyous Christmas as we near the end of Hanuka.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Richard, thanks for all your time and effort in researching these motifs. I can see on my bottle now that it does not appear like the figure is holding a sword. This next bottle [80mm] has an unknown motif. The two separate figures, the one with the sword and the other are unusual. Richard, have you seen this before? From a small auction in 2008.

Dear John,

       The man at the desk looks like a judge.
I had an IPSB with that scene by Zhang Baotian,
and Clare said it was a judge.
Best,
Merry Christmas,
Joey

Hi John

An interesting bottle.

The subject is a long story and the origin of The Journey to the West, the classical Chinese novel.

It began with the dragon king of the Jing river. His duty was to provide rain to the nearby villages. However, he was hot-tempered and commanded the rainfalls according to his mood. Sometimes he summoned heavy rainfalls, sometimes droughts.

In the story, he created a severe drought for three years.

One day, he turned himself into a young man and visited the village. On his way, he saw an old fortune teller. He decided to ridicule the old man. He asked the old man why he was still telling fortune in such a drought.

To his surprise, the old man could recognize him as the dragon king and told him not to worry as there will be a breeze and drizzle later in the day. The dragon king thought: I am the master of the rain, who are you to predict that? So, he decided to place a bet with the fortune teller. He said that if it rains that day, he will offer his head. If not, the old man must provide offerings to him for three years. Although reluctant, the old man was forced to accept the challenge.

The proud dragon king then returns to his sea palace. Upon his return, his subordinate informed him that the Jade Emperor had issued a decree for him to have a drizzle later in the day. The dragon king was so surprised that the old fortune teller could predict the outcome. He regretted having a bet with the old man. However, he thought, I am the dragon king, I will decide how much rainfall it will be.

So, later that day, instead of a drizzle, he commanded a storm instead.

The next day, he returns to the village to find the fortune teller. Upon seeing the dragon king, the old man advised him to flee for his life. The dragon king thought he was joking and asked why? The old man told him that he had disobeyed the Jade Emperor and will be beheaded as a punishment. Upon hearing this, the dragon king panicked and realised his mistake. He then begged the old man to save him. The fortune teller told him that he is just a mortal and could not do anything to help. However, he can provide some clues for him to seek help. He suggested that the dragon king approach the Tang Emperor at that time, Tang Taizong for help.

The reason was that the emperor had an official, Wei Zheng who was a high-ranking official as well as an executioner in heaven. So, the dragon king decided to approach the Tang Emperor for Wei Zheng to pardon him. He begged the emperor persistently until he agreed. However, as Wei Zheng was a strict official, it will be difficult to persuade him. Therefore, the emperor came up with a plan.

On the day of the execution, the emperor invited Wei Zheng for a game of chess and drinks. However, halfway through the game, Wei Zheng dozes off on the table. In his sleep, he shouted, "kill, kill!". Thinking that his plan had worked, the emperor was proud and happy as once the time was up, the dragon king would be spared.

When Wei Zheng woke up, the emperor asked him how his dream was. Wei told the emperor that he had already executed the dragon king in his dream. To this, the emperor was frightened and worried as he had failed to make his promise.

After the incident, the emperor had many nightmares about the dragon king coming to ask for his life. He was afraid and could not sleep well. As a result, he instructed two of his brave generals to guard the palace gate at night to prevent the dragon king from disturbing him again. It worked, but it was too tiring for the generals to be guarding every day. As a result, the emperor requested that the portraits of the two generals be painted on the two sides of the gate. This is how the tradition of two-door guardian gods is painted on the doors in most Chinese buildings.

However, the Tang emperor was still worried, and he decided to seek the help of Buddhism. He commanded the priest, Tang Sanzang on a pilgrimage to India to seek the holy scripts of Buddha. And hence, this is how the story, "Journey to the West" came about.

On John's bottle, the man in the middle is Emperor Tang Taizong and the official on the right is Wei Zheng. On the table is the chessboard.
In the other scene, it shows Wei Zheng beheading the dragon king.

There is also an inscription with two characters in the third photo, but they are too blurred to make out.

For your information.

Regards.



Richard

Dear Richard,

  First of all, to you and to all my other Christian friends on the forum,

A JOYOUS CHRISTMAS,
And to all, I WISH YOU A HAPPY HANUKA.

This was a real tour-de-force of an explanation.
Thank you,
Joey

I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy Hanuka. Richard, your knowledge always impresses me. I tried to enlarge and clean up the third photo. The only question I have is: was the Dragon King actually executed?

Thank you, Joey & John. And a merry Christmas to you!

John, yes, the dragon king was executed by Wei Zheng in his sleep.

According to the story, when he fell asleep, his other personality (or soul) went to heaven and performed his duty.
 
You can see from the third and fourth photos that there is a white smoke-like shape surrounding the two figures. In traditional Chinese illustrations, this element represents the environment of a dream.

I will inspect the inscription again and keep you informed of any progress.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Thank you, Richard.
Joey

This next example [81mm] I know from Richard is a scene from "Journey to the West". I do not know if Richard can pin down the exact scene. From a 2 part small auction of a snuff bottle collection back in 2006. I bought 31 bottles in the first sale and 27 in the second.

Hi John

Can I see what is the top section of photos 1 and 3? They will provide more specific clues for the subject.

Thanks.


Richard

Richard, on the 1st photo I can see some kind of creature with a fishes tail and spikes on it's back. On the 2nd photo I can see a spider [Spider Witches?]

This next example [79mm] has an unknown motif. Hopefully Richard can figure it out. From my local auction in 2003.

Hi John

A wild guess of the subject is from The Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

It is the chapter where Liu Bei went to the Wu state to marry the younger sister of the leader of Wu, Sun Qian.

It was meant to be a plot to keep Liu in custody so that he could not expand his power. But the plan did now work out eventually as it was seen through by Liu's adviser, Zhuge Liang.

For your reference.


Richard

Richard,

    Your knowledge of classical Chinese literature seems to be
quite encyclopaedic.
I wish I had the bottles from my B&W Human figures chapter here.
I'd ask you to enrich my [and our] knowledge of them.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Richard, again your massive knowledge of Chinese literature impresses me!

This next bottle [80mm] has an unusual 8 lobed shape. It also has the "Golden Thread" glaze. Richard, is the figure with the long axe Yang Yande? From an internet auction in 2008.

Hi John

Interesting subject.

I assume the figure in the third photo is the one holding the 'axe'?

Upon closer examination, you can see that this figure is actually a lady with a basket of flowers in front of her. So, what she is holding is actually a flower shovel.

This should be the story of Lu Dong Bin, the leader of the Eight Immortals versus the fairy White Peony (Bai Mu Dan). I will elaborate on the details tomorrow.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, I thought the figure looked like a women.

Hi John

Here is the legend of Lu Dong Bin and the fairy White Peony (Bai Mu Dan).

One day, Lu Dong Bin was asked by some villagers to fight a demon nearby their hometown. The demon has been creating havoc in the area.

Lu then discovered that the most effective way to destroy it was to use the magical hairpin from the Western Heavenly Queen (Xi Wang Mu). As it was not respectful for him to approach the Queen directly, Lu decided to seek the help of one of her fairy maids, White Peony (Bai Mu Dan).

During a feast hosted by the Queen, Lu teased Bai on several occasions to get her attention. When he finally did, he asked her for her assistance, which she compiled. Bai then managed to borrow the hairpin from the Queen and with that, Lu successfully defeated the demon.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, in your first response you used the word "versus" between the Immortals. She did end up helping him?

Hi John

Yes, she did. She borrowed the hairpin from the Queen and assisted Lu to defeat the demon.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, thanks for the background on the bottle. This next example is small [48mm] and is nicely painted with a fisherman in his boat. From an internet auction in 2015.

And yet another beauty, John.
Thank you for posting it.
Best,
Joey

I like this small bottle very much.  The painting is lovely.

Thanks Jo and Joey. This next bottle [76mm] the red is very well fired. From an early Butterfield's auction in 2007.

This next example [85mm] features precious objects. From an auction in 2010.

John,

    I just can't figure out how to date these last two bottles [in #226 and #227].
Both seem to have 'age', but...
Best,
Joey

Joey, I think both of these bottles would be dated late 19th/20th. This next bottle I would say is earlier. Some misfiring to the red. Unusual depiction of the Four Nobel Professions. From a collection I bought at the outdoor flea market back in 1998.

John,

   I could see your dating for the 2 previous bottles.
I think I see the fisherman [first], farmer [second], woodcutter [third],
but can't see the scholar in the fourth.
Best,
joey

Joey, not a very good painting of a man's torso in the window of the hut. The next small example [42mm] shows a fisherman holding his catch, some misfiring to the red. From my local auction in 2008.

John,

   Once you pointed it out, I could see the scholar in his studio.
Thanks,
Joey

This next bottle [80mm] has a lot going on. The translation I got was "Zhao family building"? They look like acrobats to me. From an auction in 2003.

Interesting, John.
But not one of my favourite types.
Best,
Joey

Joey, I understand the bottle might be a little to "busy" for you. The next bottle [80mm] features 5 horses instead of the usual 8. Possibly another bottle in the set? From an auction in 2008.

John,

    I love the horses and what looks like a weeping willow.
Best,
Joey

Hi John

I refer to the previous bottle with the sign Zhao Jia Lou (the mansion of the Zhao family).

This is a story from the Chinese opera in the Henan province.

Jigong, a monk during the Southern Song dynasty was well-known for being able to perform miracles and uphold justice for the commoners.

In this episode, it shows how he tricked the villain Hua Yun Long, a notorious thief, and captured him with the help of his disciples when he sneaked into the Zhao family.

For your reference.

Regards,


Richard

Richard, again your knowledge impresses me! I thought there had to be something behind the story....John

Another bottle [79mm] that makes a powerful statement. Richard, would this still be considered an 8 Sea Monsters bottle? From an auction in 2008.

Yes, John, it is.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, another bottle [83mm] with a story hopefully you can figure out. From a small auction in 2011

Hi John

I am afraid I am unable to figure this one out at the moment.

Will keep you posted with any new findings.

Regards.


Richard

A beautiful example, John.
I'm sure Richard will discover the subject matter.
Best,
Joey

This next example [56mm] has an interesting provenance. The seller said it had been purchased from P.C. Loo in the 1970's.

It's an interesting example, John.
Best,
joey

I hope Richard can figure this one out. This imposing bottle [88mm] has a cat-headed figure on a boat. From an internet auction in 2014.

Hi John

This is the legend of the Lady White Snake.

The motif here is the battle scene at Jin Shan Shi (Golden Mountain Temple) between Lady White Snake, her maid and her army of underwater sea creatures against the monk, Fa Hai, and the heavenly army he summoned.

In the first photo, the name of the temple is shown above Xu Xian, Lady White Snake's lover next to the monk Fa Hai.

For your information.

Regards.


Richard

Richard,
You took the words right out of my mouth!
That's what I was going to write!
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
Again, very impressive.
 ::) :o ;D ;)
Best Wishes,
Joey

Richard, again I am impressed! Is the Lady White Snake in the painting? This next bottle [77mm] has subtle use of the copper red. From my local auction in 2003. I do not know the scene.

Hi John

The motif appears to be a scene from the love story of Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai set in the Eastern Jin dynasty.

It is a Chinese legend centered around the tragic romance between Liang Shanbo (梁山伯) and Zhu Yingtai (祝英臺), whose names form the Chinese title of the story, sometimes also known as The Butterfly Lovers.

Zhu Yingtai is the only daughter of a wealthy family. Although women are traditionally discouraged from taking up scholarly pursuits, Zhu manages to convince her father to allow her to attend classes in disguise as a man. During her journey to Hangzhou, she meets Liang Shanbo, a scholar from Kuaiji. They chat and feel a strong affinity for each other at their first meeting. Hence, they gather some soil as incense and take an oath of fraternity in the pavilion of a wooden bridge.

They study together for the next three years in school and Zhu gradually falls in love with Liang. Although Liang equals Zhu in their studies, he is still a bookworm and fails to notice the feminine characteristics exhibited by his classmate.

One day, Zhu receives a letter from her father, asking her to return home as soon as possible. Zhu has no choice but to pack her belongings immediately and bid Liang farewell. However, in her heart, she has already confessed her love for Liang and is determined to be with him for all eternity. Before her departure, she reveals her true identity to the headmaster's wife and asks her to pass a jade pendant to Liang as a betrothal gift.

Liang accompanies his "sworn brother" for 18 miles to see her off. During the journey, Zhu hints to Liang that she is actually a woman. For example, she compares them to a pair of mandarin ducks (a symbol of lovers in Chinese culture), but Liang does not catch her hints and does not even have the slightest suspicion that his companion is a woman in disguise. Zhu finally comes up with an idea and tells Liang that she will act as a matchmaker for him and Zhu's "sister". Before they part, Zhu reminds Liang to visit her residence later so he can propose to marry her "sister". Liang and Zhu reluctantly part ways at the Changting pavilion.

Months later, when Liang visits Zhu, he discovers that she is actually a woman. They are devoted to and passionate about each other and they make a vow to the effect of "till death do us part". The joy of their reunion is short-lived as Zhu's parents have already arranged for her to marry a wealthy merchant, Ma Wencai. Liang is heartbroken when he hears the news and his health gradually deteriorates until he becomes critically ill. He dies later.

On the day of Zhu's marriage to Ma, strong winds prevent the wedding procession from escorting the bride beyond Liang's grave, which lies along the journey. Zhu leaves the procession to pay her respects at Liang's grave. She descends in bitter despair and begs for the grave to open up. Suddenly, the grave opens with a clap of thunder. Without further hesitation, Zhu throws herself into the grave to join Liang. Their spirits emerge in the form of a pair of butterflies and fly away together, never to be separated again.

This is a popular legend in Chinese culture and the subject has appeared in many art forms including paintings, ceramics, songs and performing operas. This is the Chinese version of Romeo and Juliet.

The scene on the bottle shows Liang bidding farewell to Zhu with their respective servants looking.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, all I can say is WOW! You were able to figure out a whole story from a pretty simple scene. The next bottle [92mm] features a pagoda. I do not remember seeing a pagoda on a bottle before. Nice firing of the copper red. From an internet auction in 2004.

Richard,
 Impressive information.

John,
Both bottles are very fine.
Best,
Joey

Thanks guys!

Sorry, John, I forgot to answer your question regarding the previous bottle.

Yes, both Lady White Snake and Green Snake are featured on the bottle.

Lady White Snake appeared in the third photo, the lady in white on the left. The Green Snake was in the second photo, at the top.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, thanks for the info. Maybe you can translate this next jarlet [64mm]. The copper seems to be almost an afterthought. From an internet auction in 2008.

Dear John,

    Unlike the last example on the B & W thread, with the 'cartoonish' facial features,
the facial features on this bottle, along with the rest of the painting, are very fine.
Beautiful example.
A pity about the damage to the foot-rim.
Best,
Joey

Hi John

This is a famous section from the classical novel, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

This chapter known as "The Three Visits to the Thatched Cottage" (San Gu Mao Lu) describes the three visits of Liu Bei who wish to engage Zhu Gei Liang as his chief military adviser.

On his first two visits, he was unable to meet Zhu Gei as he was not home.

It was only on the third visit that he managed to have a fruitful discussion with Zhu Gei and managed to convince him to join his forces.

Zhu Gei proved to be a genius in war tactics and helped Liu to win many battles against his enemy. Zhu Gei was considered one of the greatest military strategists in ancient Chinese history.

The phrase "San Gu Mao Lu" later became an idiom to express the sincerity and persistence of a person.

The title of this bottle is Gu Mao Lu, a visit to the thatched cottage. It featured Liu's second visit to Zhu Ge's home.

In this incident, Liu, together with his two sworn brothers, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei met a shepherd boy and a sage. The elderly man turned out to be Zhu Ge's father-in-law.

The scholar in the cottage is Zhu Ge Jun, Zhe Ge Liang's younger brother.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, I am amazed that you could place this to the 2nd visit! Your knowledge is impressive! This next example [84mm] has nice firing of the copper. Also, Robert Kleiner told me that any depiction of cabbage on an underglaze blue bottle is very rare. From an auction in 2015.

John,

   The painting on this bottle is wonderful, as is the red.
Best,
Joey

John,

Now this is an interesting bottle.  The body construction and composition reminds me of two bottles I have with a moth design.  See link: https://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1491.msg34293.html#msg34293

Charll

Charll, I think your bottles come from the same kiln/potter. The footrims are identical....John

This next example [81mm] comes from the Collection of Stamford University. Maybe Richard can confirm that the figure is the Goddess of Longevity.

Hi John

Yes, indeed. She is Ma Gu, the goddess of longevity.

Regards.


Richard

John,

   Why did you assume she was Ma Gu?

And Richard,
 
   What symbols or signs led you to agree?

With Shouxing (also known as Shoulao), he has a 'peach of immortality'
and a shou symbol on his jacket.
Was there something similar here?
Best,
Joey

Hi Joey

There are a few telltale signs here.

First, Ma Gu is usually featured holding a peach which symbolises a birthday gift for longevity. There is a common name for this, "Ma Gu Xian Shou". So, she represents Shou, longevity.

In this case, the peaches are in the basket behind her back.

On the bottle, there is also a deer, for Lu and a bat for Fu.

So, all three elements, Fu, Lu, Shou are present here.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Dear Richard,

 Thank you.
I assumed there were 'markers' or 'symbols' to suggest who she was,
but didn't pick up on them.
Best,
Joey

Dear Richard,

     Looking again, I saw the deer [Lu] and the bat [Fu], and even saw the basket.
But could not make out the peaches [Shou].
Is that a peach tree growing out of the basket, or do you see peaches in the basket?
Because I am not able to see any peaches.
And I saw no 'Shou' symbol on her garment.
But I'm glad that it was just my inability to identify symbols I've learned about and not
stuff I didn't know.
Best,
Joey

Hopefully Richard can identify this painting from the calligraphy. The bottle [77mm] I found in an internet auction in 2010.

Hi John

This was a battle scene at the Jia Sou Shan mountain (家锁山) during the end of the Sui dynasty.

During that time, due to poor governance, there were many rebels in the country.

There were 18 strong warriors fighting against the government as well as among themselves.

This battle was one of the major battles in which 5 warlords were involved. You can see their family names written on the banners behind them.

After this chaotic period, Li Yuan (李渊) from the Tang state emerged as the leader and replaced the Sui dynasty as the new emperor of the Tang dynasty.

He was later succeeded by his son Li Shimin (李世民) who managed to build China into the most prosperous country in the world during that period in history.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

John, Beautiful bottle.

Richard, Wonderful explanation.
Best to All,
Joey

Richard, thanks again for your detailed explanation. Did you include the translation for the calligraphy in the 4th photo?

John,

   The middle banner reads 'Wang' [King].
The rear banner is partially covered, but possibly
Richard knows the character that should be there.
And the one on the front banner.
Best,
Joey

Hi John

Yes, the inscription is the name of the venue, Jia Sou Shan mountain (家锁山).

Regards.


Richard

This next bottle [57mm] is interesting because there is a definite lean to the body. The copper is only used for the stippling around the peonies. From an internet auction in 2017.

Dear John,

    Beautiful. The bottom is interesting, with the glazed foot
and quite wide unglazed foot-rim. I'd reckon ca. 1880 - 1920.
But I was also thinking possibly earlier, ca. 1865 - 1880.
Which do you think, or do you have another time-line?
Best,
Joey

Joey, I was thinking 1865 to 1880.

Dear John,

    Yes, I can easily see ca.1865-1880 being the correct dates.
Best,
Joey

New find! A nicely fired copper and fine potting [68mm]. Maybe Richard can recognize the scene.

Hopefully Richard can place the scene on this bottle [81mm] and the previous example.

Dear John,

     I find #276 very interesting, but am stumped as to dating.
The shape is what throws me.
The next one is a type of which I'm not very enamoured,
though I have 2 like it illustrated in "In Search of a Dragon",
#45 & #46.
I've given #46 to Thomas [ThomasThomas on the Forum],
who lives in the territory of ancient kingdom of Gwynedd in north Wales,
for fans of the Gwen & Gareth Mysteries by Sarah Woodbury,
or those who are familiar with Wales.
Best,
Joey

Hi John

The last two bottles have too few elements to specify the subject.

Regards.


Richard

New find! I hope Richard can confirm the rare hallmark of the Liang family. [91mm]

Dear John,

    Is the "rare hallmark of the Liang family"

   "Da Qing Kangxi Nianzhi"?

  {Translates as Great Qing (Dynasty) Kangxi Period/Reign made}
If so, yup. ::) :o :D
Best,
Joey

Joey, "My Bad"! Part of the mark looked similar to the hallmark.

So John, in your last post showing the base of the bottle.  Which bottle does that go to?  All your pics in post #280 appear to be correct and of the same bottle, including the base pic.

Charll

Charll, the bottle is from the dragon piller thread #197 with the Jixi Tang Shi mark.

Dear John,

     In truth, the 'Xi' character is similar to the second character in post #282,
But the first one is not at all like the first one, and if the person wasn't the Emperor,
it would never have 'Great Qing' and 'Nianzhi'.
Best,
Joey

Another new find [85mm] with 5 cranes amoung clouds. Slight misfiring to the copper.

John,

   The colours look off.
Joey

Another new find [63mm]. A jarlet shape with Li Tieguai with his crutch and double gourd.

Dear John,

    Really beautiful bottle and a bad fake Qianlong mark.
Best,
joey

Hi John

Sorry, I missed the post earlier.

Yes, the mark on the base is Jixi Tang Zhi from the Liang family. (Post #280)

Regards.


Richard

Richard, I read that as Da Qing Kangxi Nianzhi, which is, first of all, six characters;
So is it actually Da Qing Jixi Tang Zhi?
I'm confused.
Joey

Richard, now I am also confused. I posted the actual Liang Family mark under Joey's reply.

Hi John

Yes, I am referring to the mark that you replied to Joey. (the second mark)

The mark with the original bottle was posted incorrectly from another bottle, right?

Regards.


Richard

Richard, the mark posted with the bottle is the one that belongs with it....John

Dear John,

   Post #282 has the Liang Family mark I believe.
Best,
Joey

Yes, Joey is right.

Post #282 is the mark that I am referring to. (I believe the mark on post #280 belongs to another bottle, am I right?)

Regards.


Richard

Richard, #280 has it's correct mark.

Dear John & Richard,

    So, to sum up, the bottle in post # 280 has the fake 6 character
Da Qing Kangxi Nianzhi mark, and another bottle supplied the genuine
4 character Liang Family mark [Jixi Tang Zhi], posted in #282.
Best,
Joey

Hahaha, thanks Joey!

Sorry for the confusion!

Regards.


Richard

Believe me, Richard.
The frivolity is welcome,
after the last over 2 months here in Israel.
But I was just summing up.

And remember, only 8 shopping days till Christmas.
When I was a kid in Toronto,
they used to say that every day on the news:
"Now remember folks, only X shopping days till Christmas!"
Best,
Joey

New find from a U.K. auction. An underglaze B&W& copper red bottle [83mm] with the "Eight barbarians bearing tribute". Perhaps Richard knows some background on this motif.

Dear John,

    A very nice 19th C. Blue & White & Red Underglazed porcelain.
The apocryphal [read FAKE] DaQing Yongzheng Nian Zhi seal mark,
is very well inscribed.
And the painting is quite good.
For the subject you'll need Richard I'm afraid.
Best,
Joey

Hi John & all

The subject of this bottle is known as Ba Fan Lai Chao (八方来朝) which means: "arriving from eight/all directions", also known as Ba Yi Lai Chao (八夷来朝) meaning the eight foreigners coming to pay respect and tribute to China.

This is usually depicted to show that the nation is strong and wealthy, and all the neighbouring countries recognize that and are coming to pay respect and tribute to the leader. They will usually bring with them exotic gifts from their native countries, hoping for a good diplomatic relationship with the host.

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard

Richard, I thought you would know the meaning!

Dear Richard,

    Wonderful explanation.
A Merry Christmas from Jerusalem,
Israel's Eternal capital.
To all my friends who celebrate the Feast.
Joey