Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi George

If  you  can get the  SH address  I will  follow  up

Ever since  I  "found"   Ms  Wang's   genuine  bottle  shop  in the  Yu Garden  tourist  - center "antique"   shopping  complex   I have not  bothered  to  do the rounds  of the  other   SH   "tourist"    bottle  shops 

But maybe it's  time to  do some  new  due  diligence  next  time  I have a free  afternoon in SH  (  early  June)

Cheers   Peter

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Just had a online talk with Peter.  I also got an email from a dealer in Nanchang, who admits to the 50/50 scheme, after using this thread as 'probe' (names eliminated, as well as this forum as a source, no concern!).  It is probably fair to say that some if not many online or shop dealers are engaged in this, willingly or unwillingly.  As Peter rightfully and correctly pointed out, this the problem with internet buying and selling,... if there is no provenance, and no opportunity to closely examine the bottle in hand and magnify the painting detail properly, I will be hard pressed to buy any more online, unless from really trusted/known sellers to me who are willing to provide the highest possible resolution pics, AND willing to take the item back later if not proven genuine. 

I agree this is a problem for some of the less mobile among us, and even to me, and I get around.  I guess slowly but surely I am starting to now fully understand the collectors 'drive' for provenance (even though many of them certainly have the funds, but maybe not the time to travel and seek).

Just to highlight how big this problem is, I went back to my collection and I found probable 30-40 bottles similar to this that I have been conned into over the years from different places, in different styles even, but all portraits, or bodies.  Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!  My fault, my fault, and only my fault.  As Peter say Caveat Emptor!  AND carry a high power magnifying glass.

[George]

Just to highlight how big this problem is, I went back to my collection and I found probable 30-40 bottles similar to this that I have been conned into over the years from different places, in different styles even, but all portraits, or bodies. 

Oh no...    So sorry to hear Pat...

[Pat - 查尚杰]

it's all in the learning ... tuition fees.... tuition bottles.      still less than 10 pct of my collection in IP, so I guess I am not too worried about it. BUT pissed off?  YES .. 

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi Pat

Guess  that's  just part  of the  learning  curve

Live and  learn  , and make  mistakes  along the   way

Hopefully  this  Forum will  alert  Newbie   collectors  to the   hazards  of  fake bottles and  how to   spot  them

I am  certainly  very much   wiser  after this thread  exchange, and I took much  "sordid"  pleasure  in  dissecting my  fake   Chinese  girl bottle  (despite  her  alluring  smile)

Guess  this  all  goes  back to  the  much -maligned  provenance   issue. 

Since  I   do not collect   Early/ Middle  School  IPBs   I think  I can make the  following  comment   totally  impartially:

I have  heard it  said that    many   Early/ Middle  School bottles  owe their  provenance   purely due to the   fact that they have  passed   through the  hands  of   Mr  ABC   or   Mr  DEF   highly -reputed   dealer/collector  .  Indeed  that may be   true :   their provenance  does    basically  depend  on the  personal opinion  of  Mr  ABC  or  Mr  DEF  .   

But I am sure that  Mr   ABC/ DEF/ GHI  ....   would  never have  attested   any bottle  as   genuine in deliberate   error,  so their  opinion  is the   best that   can be  honestly  obtained.   

Since  I  have    recently  got  involved  in   the  Modern  School  so deeply,  I think  I can  sincerely  and  honestly  attest  to the  genuiness  ( and  ball  park   value)   of  any bottle  painted  in the  past  5  years, but   I would  be  very  hesitant  to  attest to any  bottle  before   1995 ,  and   definitely   I  would  not    dare   to  attest  any  bottle  painted   earlier than  1990 .

So  you  could  also    say that  Peter Bentley's  opinion  ( after my  due   diligence   with the  artist )  is  also  a   true  provenance  for  a  very  recent  bottle . Certainly   any bottle I bought   direct   from an  artist  is  100%   the real  thing .

So where   does  that leave  us ?

Not  sure  !

I'm  just another    crazy  collector  ...

Cheers   Peter



 

[George]

I am posting this on behalf of Pat who mentioned finding this page 280 of CIPMA. Forwarded it to me to post.

Pat, I tried editing the image you sent to many different sizes.. No matter what size, none show good detail.. Must be the scanner ?? So the end result does not really show the contrast between photography and hand as is trying to be described.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  George, Pat

Many thanks for this posting

But   what  is   still not   clear to me  is  whether  this   refers  to some  kind of  photo-assisted  painting  technique or whether  it refers to the  faked   photo-film  scam we  exposed

It  SEEMS  to me  to  refer to  some  kind  of  photo-assisted  technique :  the artist   seems  to apply a   black and  white  outline  film inside the bottle and  then   he fleshes  it out   with  colored  paint.  if  so, the  painting  is on   the    film, not the  actual  glass

!!!

Cheers  Peter

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Thanks for the post George! Yes, seems the scanner was not adjusted at right dpi.  But the pics are not clear in the book either, so that just adds to the problem.  Anyway, to me it seems there is still some photographic imaging going on, not film.  Jill mentioned this photo-assisted process, whatever it is, and now it is in the WSX book also.  The main point I was trying to raise is that there are TWO seperate processes going on here.  The first one Peter figured out pretty well (although still amazing that they can get the film to stick properly inside the bottle).  The second - well - THAT beats me... and it seems that is the one used most for all the cheap bottles, many of the examples posted here earlier by George in different threads.  On some of the bottles you can see the difference between the black/grey outline and how poorly the areas have been filled in with paint.  The thing that is worrysome to me is that: 1) if the base outline can be applied AND 2) the painter who fills the area (kinda like tracing) is very good at it, the end result could look so good to fool many many folks.  And I think this is why WSX mentioned this in CIPMA.

[richy88]

Hi George & All

I tend to agreed with Peter that this is a photo assisted technique rather than a photo film.

However, I am thinking that the film should be applied outside the surface of the bottle and the person can trace the outline from the inside. Because if you have a layer of film in the bottle, how are you going to apply any paint on the bottle itself which the surface is beneath the film?

Upon completion, the person just need to peel away the film from the bottle.

Just my guess work.


Richard

Hi  George, Pat

Many thanks for this posting

But   what  is   still not   clear to me  is  whether  this   refers  to some  kind of  photo-assisted  painting  technique or whether  it refers to the  faked   photo-film  scam we  exposed

It  SEEMS  to me  to  refer to  some  kind  of  photo-assisted  technique :  the artist   seems  to apply a   black and  white  outline  film inside the bottle and  then   he fleshes  it out   with  colored  paint.  if  so, the  painting  is on   the    film, not the  actual  glass

!!!

Cheers  Peter

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Richard

Yes, I agree that  surely the   film should  be  fixed to the  OUTSIDE  of the bottle  and then  peeled  away

Cheers  Peter

[Pat - 查尚杰]

I am sure you guy are also right that it gets done this way too, BUT I remain convinced that there is a third way that is purely photographic in nature AND is then used as a baseline to paint upon.  George posted some here that I will go get and repost.  If you look at the straight lines on the outline (which is inside the bottle) that is only possible to achieve with a photographic process inside the bottle of some sort.

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Look at this... it is inside the bottle.  Look at the straight lines.   It is not a film.  I am convinced of that.  I have seen many of these bottles and even broke one on purpose just like Peter did with the lady and the 'film' inside.  However, when I did it there is no film inside.  Only the ugly brown gook/paint they use to give the bottle the older 'look' (huhum).

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Forgot to give George credit for this pic which comes from another thread. 

[George]

  I have seen many of these bottles and even broke one on purpose just like Peter did with the lady and the 'film' inside.  However, when I did it there is no film inside. 

Maybe you mentioned this before and I missed it..

Now that I know that at least your bottle that is strictly black lines has no film, I am even more convinced that these particular bottle ( not the color ones ) are accomplished with a product like Liquid Light..

Not being a photographer, it is hard for me to understand the chemical and lighting process. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this product transferes black only images onto glass.

One comment on a forum caught my attention...

Quote...

1) GLOSSY polyurathane. Spray and even coat... dry. Lightly sand (low grit, nothing intense) with sand paper. Spray another coat of polyurathane... dry.

The object need a 'tooth', something for the emulsion to grab on to.
Use glossy, semi-glossy and matte sprays have a wax additive in them. This will repell the emulsion. I have never tried that method on mirrors. the scrathes dont show on clear glass, (Probually because of the second coat.) experimient

2) Sandblasting the object. Clearly this will take away the mirror finish, so for your object this method is not desirable, but on clear glass, its nice. Plays with the transparencies of the glass.

End Quote..

The above comment sure fits the description on the surface within our bottles.

In a nut shell... It is a chemical, camera and lighting process that transferes images onto many different surfaces including glass.

I think something along the lines of this process is being used on these black only images like the bottle above. 

[Pat - 查尚杰]

hm.. this could indeed be it.  But it needs to be cost-effective.  These type of cheap bottles sell for 4-5 USD sometimes less and are plentiful!!!  Now back to my original point and real fear (and as evidence on p. 280 CIPMA).  If THIS process you mention is used as a base to paint on by a decent painter, then the end result becomes difficult if not impossible to evaluate unless by hand and even then, a magnifying glass is critical.  Certainly, just a picture, even a close up like on the net would not highlight the original base if it is painted well.

So in the end, to summarize, there are 3 ways to mimick 100 percent inside painted bottles:

1) by film inside (Peter's detective work and evidence)
2) through some kind of photographic transfer (yours and my guess with this bottle as example and my 20rmb el cheapo destroyed one a long time ago)
3) through outside film that the painter uses as a guide to paint from the inside (Peter and Richard's assertion earlier in this thread)

[George]

So in the end, to summarize, there are 3 ways to mimick 100 percent inside painted bottles:

1) by film inside (Peter's detective work and evidence)
2) through some kind of photographic transfer (yours and my guess with this bottle as example and my 20rmb el cheapo destroyed one a long time ago)
3) through outside film that the painter uses as a guide to paint from the inside (Peter and Richard's assertion earlier in this thread)

In my humble opinion, would not think #3 an option..

Because of the bottle you broke open and not finding any kind of film/coating, my vote for a bottle like the black only image goes to some kind of chemical/camera/lighting transfer like Liquid Light..

For the color images like the bottle you dissected and found the coating.., my vote goes to #2 photo transfer of some kind. With the use of an actual super thin photo held in place ( somehow ?? ) then coated with resin/epoxy.. Likely sprayed. Then touched up by hand as you showed with the hair close ups.

[George]

I do think it is safe to say as well, that a bottle with painting that is wraped around and onto the sides of an inside painted bottles body, is in fact painted and not photo enhanced.

Well, this statement turns out to be wrong !

I really dislike linking to a specific seller when talking about these fake bottles, but have no choice in this case. The images can not be copied and moved to my own photo hosting, and the very last image is to important to not show here.

I actually really like this seller, and bottles. It just drives me crazy to see these fake bottles mixed in with the other nice ones !

Here is the link to the bottle.... Now, check out the very last image of the base.  Appears to indicate resin brushed ..  If so, then it takes away my belief that these faked images could not be run around the entire front, reverse, and wrap around the sides of a bottle as well.

We had given thought to the possibility of holding an image in place and then coating over the image with resin/epoxies to hold it in place.. I still think this is possible where the image is just on the front and reverse side of a bottle.

The image in this bottle is wrapped around the entire bottle ! For me it brings into question how super difficult it would be to hold an image in place within the "entire" bottle and then manage to "brush" on the resin while all the time holding the image in place without ending up with movement, wrinkles, and tears in what ever the images material is made of.

The image of the base in this bottle indicates the resin is brushed.. Not sprayed. Not to say that others are not sprayed..

This particular bottle just adds to the confusion for me ...

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  George

Personally  I  think  this   faked  photo-printed  bottle  issue   is  a  red   herring  (  I  bet   Google   can't  translate  that idiom    correctly !)

As  soon  as  anyone  spots a  suspect bottle    at a  stupid  low   price  (  USD 19.99  !) it  MUST  be  a  fake   

The  key  is  PROVENANCE  / reputed   artist.   I think  my  DB  has   captured  90% + of  all   current   real   artists  ( and their  pen  names)  . And   in the  next 2  years   I will  extend  this  to   95% +  .

So  if  a  bottle  has  an   artist  'signed'  name   that   does  not  appear  in my  DB  you  can be  95%   certain it's a   fake

Of  course  there  are  new    up-coming   artists  ,  eg    those   whose  bottles  are  for  sale  in  Wang Xisan's   Museum/ Shop  in Hengshui , but  the  quality  of these  bottles  are  so  far  above  the   rubbish   fakes  that seem  to get  on ebay  or  whatever  that there's  really  no   discussion

Cheers  Peter   ( now  back  @  HK)

[Pat - 查尚杰]

I agree fully with Peter.  The base raw material price of just a plain shaped blank bottle like this prepared properly for inside painting is 100rmb or so at today's prices (15 USD).  I am told that the raw material prices have doubled in last 2-3 years for the glass bottles they use to paint on.  Some of the larger ornate glass bottles with the side decorations cost 40-50 USD and up from there.  Imagine the base price if man-made crystal or real rock crystal or other material.  A decent bottle takes 2-3 days to paint, a good one a week, very good ones 1-2 weeks, and some up to a month.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to buy a decent authentic bottle at this price.  The minimum for a basic authentic inside painted bottle, not a known artist, mind you, so a student bottle, in my opinion can not possibly be less than $50.  Any person would have to be out of his/her mind to sell any fully authentic bottle for less than 100 USD.  A good bottle by a somewhat getting to be known painter would have to be at least the equivalent of 1000rmb (150 USD), and up from there.  ANY person who sells these fake bottles should be avoided!! You WILL get burned, one way or the other.  DONT buy these bottles unless you can see them in daylight and hold them in your hand, and examine with naked eye AND magnifying glass, AND know at least who you are buying from, in person, or better yet, personally.  I can imagine it is very tempting, but we have had enough detailed conversations about this.   I dont think I have EVER been able to pay less than 100USD or the equivalent for a well painted bottle, even by unknown artists, and this is from occasional dealer people who just have happened to have one or two or three max, not these types of dealers.  AVOID them like the plague, please follow this advice.  A reputable dealer of IPBs will NOT sell this stuff, so you have to question EVERYTHING they have.  Also, be aware, that in addition, fakes abound, so even a good looking bottle may not be painted by the person you think painted it, even if it looks original, and signed, etc.  I dont waste my time and money on modern inside painted bottles (on ebay I mean).  Just like you and others, I look for the occasional one-off older bottle on ebay that is a potential steal, but then I pay money accordingly so that if I am wrong, I dont feel like I was stolen from.    I rest my case on ebay and modern IPBs.  Caveat Emptor as Peter likes to say.  Or as I say, if it looks or sounds to good to be true, it usually is... 

[Pat - 查尚杰]

One more thought about people who copy protect/save protect their pics of items they try to sell online (of all places, if not for being able to look at the pics to examine closely, what else is there?).  It rings a loud alarm bell or watch out in my mind... Usually holds true.   Find and use a screen capture program like Faststone Capture, Camtasia, Snag-it.  It will sometimes help reveal details you might not otherwise find or see.