Jet ( Lignite ) Qing Dynasty 1821-1850

[Wattana]

Hi Marcos,

I only saw this thread after all those other replies. The weight immediately narrows down the possibilities.  Jet and horn are both very light (and both organic). Hematite, on the other hand is extremely heavy due to its iron content.

The small chip that Charll noticed is another good clue. Jet chips in a similar way to obsidian (which is also black, but much heavier than jet). Black horn should not normally chip in this way.

A little test you may like to try is to scrape a little of the inside surface of your bottle, if you have a tool like a dentist's scraper. If you try burning the particles you have scraped out, jet will give off a coal-like smell. Horn will smell like burnt hair.

Regards,
Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom,
 
       Good clue, re.smell of the burnt scrapings.
Best,
Joey

[marcos]

Hi Tom,

I scraped a little bit but not enough to burn it. I will get a better tool for the job and try to burn it.

Thanks a lot.

[Wattana]

       Good clue, re.smell of the burnt scrapings.

Dear Joey,
It kind of reminds me of those "Scratch & Smell" books they used to publish for toddlers.      

Hi Marcos,
You only need a very small amount. Place the scrapings on a hot electric ring for best results.

Regards,
Tom

[George]

  Decoratively carved from just below the shoulder, and extending to foot rim, cylindrical "hard" as compared to soft jet bottle tapering slightly to the rounded shoulder with short neck. Which for lack of a better description seems almost a signature form for other Jet, as well as similar formed, and carved glass bottles ranging from 1780 to 1850. Raised narrow foot rim with recessed base. 2.65 inches tall, 1.12 inches (2.8cm) diameter, and a light 33 grams. Although I am leaning towards this bottle being Early to Mid 19th rather than 18th. The bottle is very light, so it made perfect sense to me that the carver left the lower 1/4 of the bottle non hollowed in order to give this light bottle at least a little weight at the base to keep a soft breeze from blowing it over !  The walls are carved thinner than any bottle I have ever handled.. All the way up and completely into the corner of the shoulder. 
  The carving includes scholar and apprentice crossing bridge, and also what appears to be an acrobat performing. With dragon rising from the waters below, and what I believe are chrysanthemums at top.

  Prior to finding out this is jet, many interesting ideas seemed possible regarding the material, and dating.  Lets start with a little help from Matthew Isganaitis who is an expert with jade. He has provided a nice comparison for us to use so as to eliminate this a 20th bottle.

  Here Matthew shows a difference between a skilled, 18th/19th carver to a lazy 20th carver. Here he gives an example showing "the obvious feature in the shape of the branches on the lingzhi. They are "V" shape with the pointy part of the v facing up. This is a short cut that occurs only from fast carving on new items. Generally with old tools you make angles close to 90degrees and then soften the edges".

  Followed by a comparison pic to this jet bottle, and then followed with a beautiful carved comparison from a Christies bottle dated 19th that both show well defined and evenly carved width at the desired 90 degrees from the base bottle to the top of carving, with no "V" effect except for where the space available for carving is tight fit and the sharper V at the top is understandingly to create a detailed decorative area. Another interesting similarity in carving between the two is how the chrysanthemums are carved separately from the branches for example.



  I would like to bring over for discussion from the previous topic a microscopic look ( x200 ) at the structure for this Jet specimen, compared to coal for the purpose of seeing the similar organic ( Most likely wood ) structure.

Here in part 5 of 6 pages they are talking about the composition of coal from Arthropitus Gallica formation.  I would expect the structure of Jet/Lingite under magnification to be the same as compressed wood as shown in coal..   

  FIG. 8. - Arthropitus gallica, St. Etienne; transverse section through the carbonized part.

  "In the region, b, of Fig. 6, the ligneous elements have undergone an evident change of form, and the walls have been broken. This region, already filled by petrifying salts, but not completely hardened, has not been able to resist, as the region, a, an external pressure, and has become more or less misshapened. As for the not yet mineralized external portion, c, it has completely given way under the pressure, the walls of the different organic elements have come into contact, the calcareous or other salts have been expressed, and this region exhibits the aspect of ordinary coal, while at the same time preserving a little more hardness on account of the small quantity of mineral salts that has remained in them despite the compression".

  "From the standpoint of carbonization there seems to us but little difference between the organic elements that occupy the region, a, and those that occupy b. If the former had not been filled with hardened petrifying matter, they would have been compressed and flattened like those of region c, and would have given a compact and brilliant coal, having very likely before petrifaction reached the same degree of carbonization as the latter. The layer of coal in contact with the carbonized or silicified part of the specimens is due, then, to a compression of the organic elements already chemically carbonized, but in which the mineral matter was not yet hardened and was able to escape".

  Think I may be on track to be able and gauge the differences between the composition of "hard", and "soft" Jet with the above info..  More on that later.. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear George,
 
  So your bottle is Jet! Wonderful!
Best,
Joey

[George]

Dear George,
 
  So your bottle is Jet! Wonderful!
Best,
Joey

Yes, you and Giavonni were both correct ! 

This bottle turned out much more than a pleasant surprise ... !

[Pat - 查尚杰]

I think it is beautiful George! Congrats

[George]

I think it is beautiful George! Congrats

Thanks Pat ! 

[George]

What is so strange about this bottle is that it's first auction appearance ( Skinner ) from a Boston ( Unknown name ) collection with a description of glass. Skinner had to handle this bottle, and they still passed it off as glass. Leaving the new owner who I bought it from also with the glass description..

Just sort of strange it was tagged as glass passing through these hands..  If nothing else, the light weight, lack of coolness, and warm opaque texture should have raised a flag..

[AntPeople]

nice catch........

Pin

[George]

Thanks Pin !

[George]

Hi Tom,

I scraped a little bit but not enough to burn it. I will get a better tool for the job and try to burn it.

Thanks a lot.

Hey Marcos and all... Maybe it is horn if this listing ID is correct.. Looks similar to yours when I look at the one top view image..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Rare-Chinese-Qing-Dynasty-Natural-Horn-Snuff-Bottle-with-Gilt-Carving-/291712163144?hash=item43eb665d48:g:ocIAAOSwZ8ZW62gQ

[Wattana]

George,

Congrats on the jet bottle! What an unexpected revelation, after passing through so many hands as "glass". Quite incredible that one material could be mistaken for the other.

And looks like you've identified Marcos' bottle as black horn. Waiting to hear back from him.

Tom

[George]

Thank you very much Tom.. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear George,

      Two questions.
What do you mean by  a "lack of coolness" and a "warm opaque texture"?

      Did you mean that it is warm to the touch, for the first term in quotations?
And how does its being opaque,  which refers to a visual issue (transparent, translucent or opaque), affect warmth or texture?
That might be three questions... 

      Anyway, that bottle is a real treasure! Congratulations!
Best,
Joey

     

 lack of coolness, and warm opaque texture.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear All,

    Matthew Isganaitis, may be a 'Jade Expert' in M.I.'s eyes, or in his parents' eyes...
Do you all remember my story about my cousin Louis D. and his yacht (or as my Uncle Max of blessed memory, called it, "his yachit")?

     Louis dressed in captain's whites, and hosted his parents on board. He said, "Ma, Pa, I'm a sea captain!" My late uncle replied," Louis, by me and your ma, you are a sea captain! By you, you might be a sea captain! By a real sea captain, you are no sea captain!"

      I have a friend, JerryL, who was on the Forum, but was too busy visiting Basra and Helmond and such place wearing green ( and it was not St. Patrick's Day!); his wife was in contact with the gentleman in question, and he made some egregious mistakes. Robyn Turner in NYC, is a serious Jade expert; Gerard Hawthorne in London, is a serious Jade expert.
     The curator at themuseum in Singapore, where Denis Low displayed his collection, is also reputed to be a serious Jade expert.

     A word to the wise,
Joey

[George]

Dear George,

      Two questions.
What do you mean by  a "lack of coolness" and a "warm opaque texture"?

   

Lack of coolness as compared to glass. Imagine picking a glass bottle from your shelf. Even at normal room temp, glass is cool to the touch. This is not, but I should not have used the term "warm" to describe. I meant more in terms of a feel good warmth.. The bottle is not actually warm to the touch.

The closest thing I have had in hand to compare when I describe opaque is like the Boshan lacquer overlay bottles that Shantong artist bought for there works.  So for an example, I would describe this black lacquer overlay on this bottle the same.. Warm, opaque texture..  Surface texture..

http://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2011/12/shantung-period-inside-painted-overlay.html

I am sure you have held one similar.. How would you describe the the feel of the black lacquer ?  Maybe I am using a term improperly..

Tom has handled many Jet bottles..  Would like to hear his description as well..

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear George,

    No, now I understand what you meant. Thank you. Yes, the way amber or lacquer does have a warm welcoming feel.
    Best,
Joey

[George]

Dear George,

    No, now I understand what you meant. Thank you. Yes, the way amber or lacquer does have a warm welcoming feel.
    Best,
Joey

Although, reading back, the using of "opaque texture" would not be correct.  It could be better described as opaque black Jet, or similar.. The word opaque should not really be connected to the word texture.. I bet that is where I got you lost.